HL Deb 04 March 1980 vol 406 cc137-9

2.40 p.m.

Lord BROCKWAY

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government what were the conclusions of the international conference of scientists, held in Hamburg under the aegis of Basket Two of the Helsinki agreement, on scientific and economic co-operation in Europe.

Lord TREFGARNE

My Lords, the conclusions of the Hamburg Scientific Forum of the CSCE take the form of a short general report with annexes on the technical subjects dealt with at the forum. The report includes inter alia a reaffirmation of the important connection between human rights and improvements in mutual relations and scientific co-operation at all levels. The value of the forum will have to be judged by the progress achieved in these matters, particularly in the Soviet Union. I am placing a copy of the report in the Library.

Lord BROCKWAY

My Lords, may I express to the Minister my apology for the timing of my Question? The forum went on longer than was expected. But may I ask him this question: While welcoming the declaration to respect human rights as a basis for international scientific co-operation, would he not agree that, despite the controversy with the Soviet delegates, valuable and constructive decisions have been made relating to energy, food production, medical progress and other matters? Will the Government support the unanimous request that there shall be further forums of this character?

Lord TREFGARNE

My Lords, there were indeed a number of useful technical conclusions made at the forum which, as I have said, were annexed to the report. As for future meetings, which the noble Lord suggests, we shall have to consider our position with regard to these on a case-by-case basis, and I could not give a general assurance.

Lord GLADWYN

My Lords, would the noble Lord explain to the House how a basket can provide an aegis?

Lord TREFGARNE

My Lords, that would be for my noble friend Lord Brockway to explain.

Lord JANNER

My Lords, can the noble Lord tell the House what took place with regard to the very eminent scientists who are being compelled to take on menial jobs because they want to leave the USSR Is there any step at all being taken on the ground of human rights and on the ground of the scientific advantage which these people can bring to the world so that this matter is considered when meetings of scientists are held?

Lord TREFGARNE

Yes, of course, my Lords, and the delegates at the conference used this opportunity to make their views on these matters known to their Soviet counterparts.

Lord AVEBURY

My Lords, is the Minister really able to say that valuable technical conclusions were reached in a forum where most of the Soviet participants, by all accounts, were not scientists at all but KGB officers? Can the Minister say whether there was any response whatsoever to the forthright and encouraging statement made by the noble Lord, Lord Todd, or whether the Government will still continue to press for the release of distinguished scientists like Shcharansky and Sakharov before they continue with exchanges of the kind which took place in Hamburg?

Lord TREFGARNE

My Lords, it is too early to say whether there will be any concrete results of the kind to which the noble Lord refers but, as I have said, the delegates to that conference, who were British scientists and not British Government delegates, lost no opportunity to impress their views upon the Soviet delegates, some of whom were scientists.

Lord BROCKWAY

My Lords, is the Minister encouraged by the fact that the unaligned nations at the conference sup- ported the demand for human rights and that even the representatives from other Communist countries of Eastern Europe were very restrained in their support of the Soviet Union? Will the Government support the proposal which has been made by the forum that there should be continuing seminars to discuss international scientific co-operation?

Lord TREFGARNE

My Lords, we will certainly support any proposal of that nature which in our view is effective and worthwhile. As for the conclusions of the forum generally, there were 35 nationalities represented at that forum, and a considerable degree of compromise was necessary to achieve the result that was achieved.

Lord BETHELL

My Lords, will the Minister confirm, however, that the Helsinki agreement must be seen as a whole and that those parts of it which concern scientific co-operation and which are dear to the hearts of the Soviet bloc cannot be furthered on their own while the sections which deal with human rights are flaunted in very many particulars by that bloc? Can we not concentrate on the agreement as a whole?

Lord TREFGARNE

My Lords, my noble friend is quite right. That is certainly our view.