HEATHROW AIRPORT/LONDON BUS SERVICES (Hansard, 12 June 1980)

§ Baroness BURTON of COVENTRY
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

§ Lord TREFGARNE
My Lords, British Airways operate the bus service between Victoria terminal and Heathrow Airport, and at present have no plans for any change in that service. The bus service between the West London Air Terminal and Heathrow Airport was discontinued in 1979, and there are no plans for it to be resumed.

§ Baroness BURTON of COVENTRY
My Lords, believing that the Minister 562 wishes to keep as watchful an eye on this area as I do, may I ask him whether he saw the BBC "Nationwide" programme on Wednesday, 7th May, when they televised a section on the declining numbers of tourists? Is he aware that they said that tourists and travellers had been greatly disadvantaged by the discontinuance of the bus service from the West London Air Terminal, something with which all sides of the House would agree? May I finally ask him whether, in view of that programme, he and his department would have a look at it, as I have given him the date and the time? And if he could write to me about it, perhaps I could put down another Question.

§ Lord TREFGARNE
My Lords, I did not see the programme to which the noble Baroness refers, but I shall certainly try to get hold of a transcript to see whether the things in it are relevant to the Question that the noble Baroness has put to me this afternoon. The noble Baroness referred to the declining numbers of tourists. I am not sure that that is correct in every field of tourism, but it is certainly the case that the bus service to which the noble Baroness refers has been losing money.

§ Baroness BURTON of COVENTRY
My Lords, I forgot the most important part of my supplementary question. May I ask the Minister (because I have to put it in the form of a question) whether he is aware that this section of the television programme said that inquiries were on foot for a new bus service to serve the West London Air Terminal and the surrounding area? Would he take that on board as well?

§ Lord TREFGARNE
I certainly will take that on board, my Lords, but I can say, as I said in my original Answer, that British Airways have no plans for such a service.

§ Lord KILMARNOCK
My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord whether he is aware that the present Underground link is not in fact the most suitable form of link for passengers with heavy luggage, especially in the rush-hour? The Underground trains were designed for commuters, and if you have no heavy luggage they are perfectly adequate; but I should like to ask the noble Lord whether he 563 would not take this into consideration in recommending to British Airways that they consider the re-establishment of that extremely valuable service to the West London Air Terminal.

§ Lord TREFGARNE
My Lords, the conduct of services such as this is a matter for British Airways, and they must make these decisions in the light of the commercial prospects. Both the service from the West London terminal, which was terminated a year ago, and the Victoria terminal are losing money, and this must therefore be a matter for British Airways. As for the general matter of passengers with luggage, while I accept that there are some difficulties for passengers with very large amounts of heavy luggage on the Underground service, there is already an existing Green Line bus service to London Airport; and I must say that those with large amounts of heavy baggage really ought to consider whether they should not use a car or a taxi of some sort.

Several noble Lords
Oh!

§ Baroness MACLEOD of BORVE
My Lords, may I ask my noble friend whether he is also aware that there are mothers with children who travel by air, that there are also disabled people and that there are also very elderly people? None of those categories can possibly manage to use the Tube if in fact, as is usual, they have any luggage as well. If you have small children, it is absolutely essential to have a bus service. Is my noble friend also aware that the use of a taxi service or a private car hire service is really beyond the financial means of most people?

§ Lord TREFGARNE
My Lords, we are talking about people who are going to London Airport to travel long distances at very considerable expense. I certainly agree that taxis and cars are of course more expensive than the bus service, but the fact is that the numbers of people who want to use the bus service are not sufficient to make that service viable.

§ Lord WYNNE-JONES
My Lords, is the noble Lord aware—I know that he takes a great interest in these matters—that the matter which has been raised 564 today by my noble friend Lady Burton (and she has raised it frequently before) is something which really concerns a large number of us? In the last month I have had reason to go out to Heathrow on three occasions, and it is impossible to get direct transport from the Victoria terminal to Terminal No. 2. You can go to Terminal No. 3 and Terminal No. 1, but not to Terminal No. 2, from which a number of flights which are linked with British Airways leave. It is a serious matter to lug something across from Terminal No. 1 to Terminal No. 2. Alternatively, of course, one can wait for the inter-connecting bus. But does the noble Lord think that is desirable when, having gone out there and timed it carefully, one finds that the next bus arrives in a quarter of an hour's time? Does he not realise that it has become progressively more difficult to get out to Heathrow, and would he take this matter up seriously?

§ Lord TREFGARNE
My Lords, I do not think the noble Lord is right in that. The opening of the Underground service to Heathrow has proved a very considerable benefit for a great many travellers. Certain difficulties have been raised about travellers with, for example, a number of small children or a very large quantity of heavy baggage, and I have answered those questions. But it is not true to say that the arrangements are generally less good than they were; they are not.

§ Lord FERRIER
My Lords, in the light of what my noble friend Lady Macleod said, would my noble friend ask the airway authorities whether they realise that there are a large number of passengers (and I include myself among them) who simply will not go to Heathrow now? If I cannot get to Gatwick, I go by train.

§ Lord TREFGARNE
My Lords, if my noble friend is referring to the services from Heathrow to Scotland, for example, then I must tell him that the surface links between Central London and Heathrow are just as good as the surface links between Central London and Gatwick, and I would advise my noble friend to think again.

§ Lord MONSON
My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that, if the existing coach link from Victoria is abolished for 565 financial reasons, London will then be the only capital city in Europe without a bus or surface rail link to its main airport?

§ Lord TREFGARNE
My Lords, as I have said, British Airways, who operate the present service, have no plans to terminate it at the present time. If there are all that many passengers who think that the service ought to be maintained, as perhaps it should, then they will show that by using the service.

§ Viscount BROOKEBOROUGH
My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that the Underground have a very special hazard for people with even small amounts of luggage? They have a barrier above a set of stairs before one goes down so that one cannot take a trolley down to the platform. This is an absolute barrier to one getting through—and one does not even have to have much luggage for it to be quite a lot to carry down the stairs.

§ Lord TREFGARNE
My Lords, I am aware that trolleys are not permitted on the Underground station at Heathrow because of the danger that the trolleys might fall on to the track. A lift is available there for use on request.

§ The LORD PRESIDENT of the COUNCIL (Lord Soames)
My Lords, I think the House will agree that we ought to move on.