§ Lord BUXTON of ALSAMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether, in order to allay anxiety later in the year, they will indicate now how they intend to finance the BBC external radio services in 1981 and 1982, thus ensuring that there is no diminution of the British voice and influence abroad.
§ Lord TREFGARNEMy Lords, the BBC external services will be financed by grants in aid in 1981–82 and 1982–83. The grants will be based on estimates to be submitted by the external services in due course; they will be subject to the usual Treasury and parliamentary approval.
§ Lord BUXTON of ALSAMy Lords, in thanking my noble friend for that reply, which is not dissimilar from the reply which he gave to the debate on this subject which I introduced last year, may I ask my noble friend and the Government whether they are aware (as they must be) that something critical has happened since that similar statement was made— that is, the invasion of Afghanistan? Are they aware of their own policy and their own reaction and the effect it is having on the world, and do the Government now understand that they are marching in opposite directions on the one hand on policy and on the other hand on finance— and I am purposely not referring to the domestic economy or any issue of that sort— where overseas matters of a comparatively fringe nature are concerned? May I ask the Government now to update 1250 their policy on finance so that it co-ordinates with their policy on foreign affairs? The Prime Minister herself has called—
Several noble Lords: Speech!
§ Lord BUXTON of ALSAI am sorry, my Lords, I have to ask my noble friend whether he recalls that the Prime Minister has called for more broadcasts to Russia and for considerable expansion, and with your Lordships' approval I ask him to respond about this matter.
§ Lord TREFGARNEMy Lords, we certainly accept that the invasion of Afghanistan created something of a new situation in that part of the world and that is why we increased the broadcasts in Russian and in Farsi, which is the language spoken by the majority of the people of Afghanistan, but the external services as a whole cannot be exempt from the Government's general scrutiny of public expenditure.
§ Lord TAYLOR of BLACKBURNMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that the external services of the BBC are strongly favourable to British business interests in creating a climate which is helpful to British exporters? Will he use his best efforts to prevent the extremist monetarists in his own party from damaging British interests in pursuing that party dogma?
§ Lord TREFGARNEMy Lords, I think that the economies that we have inevitably been forced to make in the external services of the BBC are fairly modest by all standards and I am quite satisfied that the external services will remain as effective as ever.
§ Lord GLADWYNMy Lords, would not the noble Lord recognise that the external services in practice represent our first line of defence and that in the Government's own estimation defence is excluded from the cuts?
§ Lord TREFGARNEMy Lords, that is a fairly high-powered theoretical argument, but I certainly accept that the external services are important, and that is why, as I said, we have been able to prevent the worst effects of our cuts falling on them.
§ The Earl of KIMBERLEYMy Lords, bearing in mind what the noble Lord, Lord Gladwyn, has said, will my noble friend agree that, as this is perhaps one of our first lines of defence, some of the budget might possibly come from the Ministry of Defence?
§ Lord TREFGARNEMy Lords, whichever Government department is responsible for the external services, the money still has to come from the same place.
Lord CHELWOODMy Lords, does my noble friend accept that wavelengths lost are almost certainly lost for ever, that audiences lost are very hard indeed to recapture, and that therefore it would be quite wrong to describe any cuts that are made as "temporary"?
Lord TREGFARNEMy Lords, I am speaking from memory in this matter, but I think I can recall telling my noble friend on a previous occasion that no frequencies are to be vacated.
§ Lord AIREDALEMy Lords, can we be assured that the sweeping economies which the BBC is having to pursue, such as the disbanding of orchestras, are in no way due to any financial strain on the BBC resulting from having to maintain their external services?
§ Lord TREFGARNEYes, my Lords, I can assure the noble Lord that the BBC external services are quite separately funded from the BBC domestic services.
§ Baroness LLEWELYN-DAVIES of HASTOEMy Lords, would the noble Lord agree that many people on this side, and I think in many parts of the House, would strongly deprecate any suggestion that money should come from the Ministry of Defence for the external services of the BBC, because their strength throughout the world is their known impartiality?
§ Lord TREFGARNEMy Lords, I absolutely agree with the noble Baroness, to the extent of course that the BBC external services enjoy total editorial freedom— and long may it so remain.
§ The Earl of ONSLOWMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that a vast amount of the fighting in Afghanistan is 1252 going on around Kabul and Kandahar where they speak Pushtu and I believe there is no broadcasting in Pushtu, and it would be most important to inform the people there of what is going on in the outside world?
§ Lord TREFGARNEMy Lords, I was not aware that that particular language— which I confess I do not think I have even heard of— was not in the repertoire of the BBC external services, but I will consider that matter.
§ Lord BUXTON of ALSAMy Lords, is my noble friend aware that at this time Russia is installing 43 new 500-kilowatt shortwave transmitters, that the Voice of America and West Germany have numerous shortwave transmitters under construction and that many other countries— the Netherlands, Norway, Yugoslavia, Iraq, India, Nigeria and South Africa— are all marching forward with expansionist programmes on shortwave transmitters and only Britain is either static or going backwards? Will the Government please give urgent attention to the fact that we are losing our way?
§ Lord TREFGARNEMy Lords, I think that in these matters we have to distinguish between quality and quantity. The quantity pumped out by the Soviet Union is in no way comparable to the quality of our services.
§ Lord FERRIERMy Lords, would the noble Lord agree that on all sides of the House there is a strong view that, far from just continuing the level of our present broadcasts, they should in fact be increased?
§ Lord TREFGARNEMy Lords, I am aware of that view.
§ Baroness ELLIOT of HARWOODMy Lords, if broadcasting is one of our methods of defence, which I think the noble Lord has said, surely it is the very cheapest kind of defence we can possibly engage in— far better than building expensive weapons?
§ Lord TREFGARNEMy Lords, nothing, alas, is cheap in this world; and the financial provision for the External Services is something in excess of £ 40 1253 million a year, which still has to be found from somewhere, whether the Ministry of Defence or the Foreign Office.