§ 2.44 p.m.
§ Lord ORR-EWINGMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the first Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government what legislative, financial and persuasive powers they have to encourage local authorities to contain their spending and start reducing their staff.
§ The PARLIAMENTARY UNDERSECRETARY of STATE, DEPARTMENT of the ENVIRONMENT (Lord Bellwin)My Lords, Her Majesty's Government influence the level of local government expenditure, including manpower, through the annual Public Expenditure White Paper, through the annual rate support grant settlement, and by the operation of the capital borrowing consent powers. Ministers also regularly discuss these and related matters with the local authority associations and the leaders of individual local authorities. In addition, legislative proposals for the control of total capital expenditure, and for a new method of grant distribution which will not reward overspending, are before Parliament at present and will be brought to your Lordships' House shortly. Local authorities are employers in their own right and make there their own decisions on staffing. However, my right honourable friend has frequently stressed the need to reduce local government manpower and has encouraged the regular publication of detailed figures.
§ Lord ORR-EWINGMy Lords, while thanking my noble friend for that reply, may I ask whether he is aware that the central Government, and therefore the taxpayers of this country, foot 60 per cent. of the local authority bill? Would it not therefore be of some advantage if the Government published the list of local authorities who are big spenders with increasing staff and those who are eco- 1254 nomical spenders with decreasing staff? May we not see the different amounts of money spent on local authority services so that we can have a comparability chart and see where local authorities are getting good value for money?
§ Lord BELLWINMy Lords, this whole area of accountability and publication of information is something which the Government are most anxious to encourage. Indeed, recently we have for the first time had published certain statistics regarding manpower levels in different authorities. That in turn should lead ultimately, through the Local Government Bill which will be coming to your Lordships' House in due course, to other information and other publication, which I hope will assist everyone in making their own decisions and in coming to their conclusions about levels of spending between authorities.
§ Baroness BIRKMy Lords, does the Minister agree that the local authorities are not achieving these cuts, and that in fact the majority of them are Conservative controlled? Does he further agree that, since, presumably, Conservative councils are anxious to support Government policy, this must indicate that cuts of the order demanded by the Government cannot be obtained only by streamlining administration but must be made at the expense of crippling crucial services, on which, in the words of the Secretary of State in Scarborough last September, the framework of our society depends?
§ Lord BELLWINMy Lords, the situation in individual authorities varies very much indeed and it will be for each authority to decide what it can and cannot do. But the basic presumption must be an understanding of the reality of the national situation. There is a responsibility upon local government, just as there is upon every other spending point, to make its contribution. What each authority does will be for it to decide in the light of its own circumstances, but at the end of the day local government must make its contribution to helping to solve the grave national problem.
§ Baroness BIRKMy Lords, is the noble Lord saying that at no point will central Government give an indication of 1255 the priority in which they hold the various services which are suffering so badly, and which will suffer even more in the future?
§ Lord BELLWINMy Lords, if the Government wished to tell an individual authority what it should be providing by way of levels of service in each separate instance, in the first place it would be totally impossible to do, and in the second place it would be so resented by local authorities that it just would not make any sense. With great respect to the noble Baroness, we are now entering into a realm of very great sensitivity where the problem is by no means as simple as she would seek to intimate.
§ Lord HALEMy Lords, I venture respectfully to say that it is now my turn. If the noble Lord the Leader of the House says that I am wrong, I will sit down immediately. I understood the the noble Lord to say that the Government were introducing a Bill. Will he bear in mind that there are many people now living on a fixed income, many retired people who find that their rates have gone up to the tune of hundreds of pounds a year? Under the Government's policy their heating costs will increase by a similar amount and they have no other resources but their fixed income, which will no longer enable them to meet these costs. I should like to postpone the question of rents until next week.
§ Lord BELLWINMy Lords, I confess that I am not sure of the precise question which the noble Lord has put; but if he is trying to indicate the hardship that can be caused by high rates, then I entirely accept that and hope that it will be brought to the notice of every authority that was responsible for fixing rates in the first place. I think that it should also be said that those who really encounter hardship in paying rates have access to the rate allowances which are available. However, in the main I entirely accept the point which the noble Lord has made about high rates.
§ Viscount AMORYMy Lords, in view of the importance of examples as regards these matters, I should like to ask my noble friend whether it is true, as reported in The Times today, that, while the Government have reduced the 1256 strength of the Civil Service, quite rightly, by 4 per cent. during the past year, the total number of Ministers remains the same, at 106? Will my noble friend bear in mind the importance of keeping the ratio between Ministers and civil servantsnot widely different in that respect? What is sauce for the goose must be sauce for the gander, must it not?
§ Lord BELLWINMy Lords, as to that, I can only say that I would have to refer my noble friend to the Prime Minister.
§ Lord CLEDWYN of PENRHOSMy Lords, while everyone agrees that good husbandry in local government is absolutely essential, is the noble Lord aware that there are areas of the country, like the rural areas of Wales— the provinces of Gwynedd and Powys— where unemployment is unacceptably high, running at the rate of 15 per cent. to 20 per cent., and where local government is a major and essential employer of labour in addition to being a provider of services? Will the noble Lord and the Government bear that in mind when they talk about reducing manpower in local government?
§ Lord BELLWINMy Lords, one of the best contributions that local government can make in individual circumstances to retaining employment and not to driving it out, is to keep rates at a level which will not force people to move to other areas where rates are much lower.
§ Lord CLEDWYN of PENRHOSMy Lords, they are doing precisely that.
§ Lord GRIDLEYMy Lords, as regards the responsibility of local authorities, can the noble Lord confirm the statement made in the Unstarred Question last night, that the local authorities in Fife made a gift of ratepayers' money of £ 1, 000 to the Russians in support of the Olympic Games?
§ Lord BELLWINMy Lords, I cannot confirm that that is so. I do not know. If it is so, then there are many who would deplore it.
§ Lord MONSONMy Lords, given that those who are liable to pay rates in full form only a minority of local government electors, would the noble Lord perhaps agree that ratepayers ought to be protected from the excesses of the more extravagant 1257 councils by some legislation which would limit the annual permissible increase in rates to a maximum of, let us say, 25 per cent?
§ Lord BELLWINMy Lords, I trust that the noble Lord appreciates the significance of the suggestion he has just made, because its implications for the whole relationship between central and local government are very great. All that I would say on the point is that it is not the Government's intention at present to contemplate having a cash limit or a limit of the kind that the noble Lord suggests. There are certainly those who would have sympathy with his point of view, but I would have to say again that the implications are very far-reaching indeed.
§ Lord ALEXANDER of POTTERHILLMy Lords, would the noble Lord agree that since 1958 the situation which obtains as regards the relationship between central and local government is one in which the only matters over which central Government have any influence are expenditure and the function of local authorities to provide services? I can cite not one, but many examples where the Government of the day have deliberately provided moneys for a particular service, but, of course, those moneys have been spent on other services.
§ Lord BELLWINMy Lords, Governments do have an influence on expenditure, in the main through the rate support grant, but they do not have the last word at all on it. The last word lies with the locally elected members. They decide what they will spend. What the Government decide is what they will contribute by way of grant and how that grant will be distributed. However, we are getting into a very broad area of discussion and debate which I am sure will take place in your Lordships' House at great length before too long.