§ 2.55 p.m.
§ Lord DENHAMMy Lords, with the leave of the House, may I announce that, subject to the progress of business, the House will adjourn for the Summer Recess on Friday, 8th August and return on Monday, 6th October.
§ Baroness LLEWELYN-DAVIES of HASTOEMy Lords, while the House will be grateful to the noble Lord for making that Statement, is he aware that it causes a great deal of dismay in many parts of this House? We know that all Governments—and especially in their first year—try to put through too much legislation. We are familiar with that. We know that the noble Lord is always mindful of the welfare of the House and that the noble Lord the Leader of the House strives manfully on our behalf, but very many noble Lords believe that Her Majesty's Government simply do not understand the functions and the capabilities of this House. Her Majesty's Government have refused to allow a single major Bill to start here, with the result that at the end of the Session an intolerable burden is placed on our House.
My Lords, we are neither a salaried nor a full-time House—and in some degree we are an elderly House—and to continue to sit, night after night, week after week, on gruelling revision of technical, controversial Bills, many of which have been guillotined in the other House, is simply not reasonable.
Noble Lords will realise that in bringing this House back on the 6th October the Government are forcing the House to sit through their own Party Conference; that is evidence, if we needed it, that the Government's programme is out of control.
We should like to ask the noble Lord the Chief Whip and the noble Lord the Leader, who have always treated this House with great consideration, to convey to their colleagues in the Government our disquiet at the way they have arranged their programme—our disquiet that they allow us to waste our time at the beginning of a Session by not being given enough major work to do and exploit our strong sense of duty at the end of the Session to continue to put their programme through.
668 Further, may I ask the noble Lord whether they will be sitting in another place on the 6th October?
§ Lord BYERSMy Lords, I should like to support what the noble Baroness has said. This is not the first time that we have had to protest from the Opposition Benches, whatever Government is in power. When we get an overload of work on the parliamentary system such as we have had in this Session, there is a serious risk of very bad legislation as a result. I know it is too late to do anything about it now, but may I plead with the noble Lord the Leader of the House to ask his colleagues in another place to start planning the next Session's work now, so that we get a proper balance of work and do not run into this problem as we seem to do practically every other Session.
§ Lord DENHAMMy Lords, I am glad that the noble Lord, Lord Byers, remembers that we have been under a certain amount of pressure in previous years but I do not want to make too much of that. Admittedly, we did not have a major Bill starting in this House; one, as your Lordships will remember, had to be dropped and another started first in another place and I think the party of noble Lords opposite was not altogether unconnected with that decision in another place.
§ Baroness LLEWELYN-DAVIES of HASTOEMy Lords, it is for the Government to govern.
§ Lord DENHAMYes, my Lords, and it is for Her Majesty's Opposition to oppose, but this particular Government always like to take representations from the Opposition. The noble Baroness has said that we are going to have to sit during the Conservative Party Conference: I remember an occasion when this House was made to sit by a Government of the party opposite not only during their own Party Conference but during ours as well. I think the noble Baroness will find that that is true. I have just been checking up on that. I will certainly apologise if I am wrong, but I do not think I am.
I do not for one moment wish to belittle the pressure under which your Lordships have been this Session. Equally, 669 I should not like to belittle the way in which your Lordships have stood up to that pressure. I hope that will be noted down the corridor by people of all parties who do not necessarily become over-voluble in support of your Lordships' House.
§ Baroness PHILLIPSMy Lords, I should like the noble Lord to recognise that we are in fact trying to support him in our plea. In other words, although our words are addressed in this House, we hope that by some magic influence they will reach the ears of his colleagues in another place, because it is important that in the next Parliament this House should have the opportunity of starting some major Bills. Will the noble Lord the Leader of the House appreciate that when we make our plea it is to strengthen his arm, and that we perhaps can also make our presence felt with our own group in the other House if the inspiration comes from the Government? Unless the Government make their voice heard very loudly we still shall not get the opportunity to have these major Bills in this House.
§ Lord DENHAMMy Lords, the noble Baroness is preaching to the converted on this point, I do assure her. I really do believe that the lesson has been learned, not only here but in Parliament as a whole, and that in the next Session the load will be distributed more evenly. I know your Lordships have heard that story before, but I really do believe that this time it has been realised that the unequal division is inconvenient for both Houses.
§ Lord BOYD-CARPENTERMy Lords, I hope that one of the lessons learned is the lesson not to pay too much attention to the Opposition in another place when they object to the starting of, say, the Local Government Bill in this House. Will Her Majesty's Government remember on a future occasion that their giving way to the Opposition on that in another place merely resulted in the noble Baroness here today twitting them with their failure to introduce any major Bill first in this House?
§ Lord DENHAMMy Lords, there might be a certain amount of truth in what my noble friend says.
§ Lord NORTHFIELDMy Lords, I wonder whether the noble Lord recalls the last occasion on which I raised the issue of the failure of the Government to carry out the recommendations of the Select Committee on Practice and Procedure. On that occasion my noble friend Lord Shepherd rose to his feet and said that the Government would regret it later in the Session when the legislation before your Lordships' House was piling up and when they would reflect that the recommendations of that committee might have helped to some extent to relieve the pressure. Does the noble Lord recall my noble friend Lord Shepherd saying that? Would it not be a good thing to have another look at the recommendations as a possible means of alleviating exactly the situation that my noble friend prophesied so clearly?
§ Lord DENHAMMy Lords, of course, we must always look at every suggestion made. Whether the particular suggestion which the noble Lord, Lord Northfield, is recalling—which I believe the Select Committee on Practice and Procedure made in the first report of their first year—would in fact have any effect on the congestion at the end of the Session, I am not absolutely sure.
§ Baroness LLEWELYN-DAVIES of HASTOEMy Lords, would the noble Lord be so kind as to answer my last question, which was this: While the Government are compelling the Lords to burn their candle at both ends, what will be happening in another place?
§ Lord DENHAMMy Lords, what happens in another place is a matter for another place. If they do decide to come back a little later than we do at the end of the Recess, it certainly would not be the first time.
§ Lord BYERSMy Lords, surely this is a matter for Parliament as a whole. We really must know what is happening in another place.
§ Lord DENHAMYes, my Lords; but when this House is sitting by itself, Parliament is sitting.