§ 2.51 p.m.
Baroness VICKERSMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government when it is anticipated that the old Charing Cross Hospital will be closed as a shelter for many homeless people and what other arrangements are being made to replace this necessary accommodation.
§ The PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE, DEPARTMENT of the ENVIRONMENT (Lord Bellwin)My Lords, St. Mungo Community Housing Association has been given notice to leave the old Charing Cross Hospital in December 1981. The association has set up an Alternative Accommodation Working Party, which is now seeking suitable alternative premises. The working party includes representatives of the GLC, the City of Westminster housing department, the Departments of the Environment and of Health and Social Security, the Housing Corporations and Church organizations.
Baroness VICKERSMy Lords, I thank the noble Lord for that reply. Will the report of the working party, and indeed the alternative accommodation, be available by 1981? I ask this because it is estimated that about 1,500 people sleep out at night in the London area. Has the noble Lord been to the Embankment and to the area under Charing Cross Bridge in order to see whom I might describe as tragic specimens of human beings sleeping out there every night?
§ Lord BELLWINMy Lords, I cannot say whether alternative accommodation will be ready by the time mentioned. I should like to stress that everybody involved is in fact most concerned about this matter. I am aware of the situation to which my noble friend refers, although I am sure that she does not wish to imply that all the 1,500 people she refers to are housed (if that is the right word) in this particular hostel. Certainly this 1775 is a problem of great concern, and it is being treated as such.
The LORD BISHOP of LONDONMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that the closing of the old Charing Cross Hospital will create a situation of the utmost seriousness? Is he also aware that the voluntary associations involved in providing accommodation in such places as Centre Point, or the Crypt of St. Peter's, Eaton Square, are stretched to the utmost? Will the noble Lord give all possible encouragement to facilitate the progress of the working party and to see that it is able to provide adequate alternative accommodation when the old hospital finally ceases to be available to the St. Mungo Community Housing Association?
§ Lord BELLWINMy Lords, I readily confirm that we are indeed very concerned and that we know of the situation to which the right reverend Prelate refers. I am also able to say that the Housing Corporation has earmarked funds, and I suspect that at the end of the day finance will be a key factor in dealing with this problem. I repeat that everyone involved is indeed aware of the problem which would arise if by December 1981 alternative accommodation of some kind is not provided.
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, is the noble Lord the Minister aware that while in a matter of this kind it is desirable to involve a number of Government departments, particularly those departments that are either directly or indirectly concerned, experience has shown that where several Government departments are involved it is extremely difficult to reach a decision within a reasonable time?
§ Lord BELLWINYes, my Lords; I entirely accept that. I think that the problem arises here because a number of bodies recognise the importance of the matter. The association that is running this particular hostel I should have thought very successfully has managed to involve everybody who might be able to make a contribution to solving the problem. I take the point of the noble Lord, Lord Wells-Pestell, about the possibility of difficulties arising if too many people are involved, but I believe that in this instance everyone is so seized of the problem that 1776 the fact that a number of people are involved is probably not in any way disadvantageous.
§ Baroness MACLEOD of BORVEMy Lords, in view of the fact that the noble Lord has given the date of December 1981, when everyone knows it is likely to be rather cold in this country, can he answer two questions? First, how many people are at present housed in the old hospital? Secondly, can he assure the House that the old hospital will not be closed if alternative accommodation is not ready at the time mentioned, bearing in mind that the weather then will be bound to be inclement?
§ Lord BELLWINMy Lords, the number of people involved is 350. I cannot give my noble friend an assurance in regard to what will happen to the hospital. However, bearing in mind that in one sense the date is a long way off, yet in another sense it is not, since it is necessary to consider what has to be done to provide alternative accommodation, I can give my noble friend an assurance that everyone is looking very closely at what might be done in the unhappy event of an alternative not being ready by that time. This is a matter which even now, 17 months ahead, is being actively considered. I hope that that will be some encouragement.
§ Lord MACKIE of BENSHIEMy Lords, may I ask the noble Lord what is to be done with the old Charing Cross Hospital?
§ Lord BELLWINMy Lords, it belongs to the Metropolitan Police. It has for some time now been occupied by the association in question, on a virtually no-payment basis—a peppercorn basis. But, as I say, it is in the ownership of the Metropolitan Police.
§ Lord MACKIE of BENSHIEMy Lords, what are they going to do with it?
§ Lord BELLWINMy Lords, I understand that the Metropolitan Police have plans to redevelop it entirely.
§ Baroness BIRKMy Lords, first, we should like to know for what purpose the Metropolitan Police are to redevelop the old hospital. Secondly, bearing in mind 1777 the present crisis in housing, and the fact that the numbers of homeless are not decreasing but are probably increasing, I think the House would like to know, not so much about when the working party finishes its task, or in what way it is composed, but, rather, whether we can have an undertaking that if it does not come to an agreement or cannot find alternative accommodation the Government will step in and ensure that there is refuge for the 350 people? After all, 350 is not an enormous number. It is about that question that we should like to know something more.
§ Lord BELLWINMy Lords, I thought that I had already said that in fact the Government as such do not step in. When these situations arise—and there are precedents—various bodies become involved. For example, I understand that the GLC has confirmed that in the unhappy event that an alternative is not found by the time mentioned, the association may nominate people for a number of GLC dwellings. Secondly, I have already referred to the fact that the Housing Corporation is earmarking substantial funds to help in this matter. One cannot get away from the fact that at the end of the day the local authorities would have to be involved, and of that they are certainly aware.
Baroness VICKERSMy Lords, will the noble Lord be kind enough to look again at his reply to me? I referred to 1,500 people who are homeless in the London area and who sleep out every night. Where are they going to go?
§ Lord BELLWINMy Lords, the whole question of the provision of hostel facilities for what is undoubtedly a very unhappy section of the community is the subject of a report which I believe my honourable friend in another place said he hopes to make available before too long. I believe that the report will confirm what my noble friend Lady Vickers has said, and I think that it will help to make it clear that the problem is a very real one, as I said when I started to answer the Question.
§ Lord ELWYN-JONESMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware in particular of the extent to which homelessness is affecting the young people in London, especially in 1778 East London, where bodies such as Kipper are trying to provide some kind of accommodation in old ruined buildings? Cannot something be done urgently to help in that particular field?
§ Lord BELLWINMy Lords, we are tending to move away from the Question regarding the hostel, but of course I take the point that the noble and learned Lord makes. That kind of problem is very real, and has been so for a very long time. What one can do about it is the subject of constant debate.
Lord JANNERMy Lords, will the noble Lord further expedite the matter when I inform him that I found in the basement yard of my office a man who had been dead for some weeks, and who obviously had no other place to which to go? This is a very serious problem indeed.
§ Lord BELLWINMy Lords, all that the noble Lord says only endorses, I think, what my noble friend has said; and no one is seeking to deny that this is a very real problem.
§ Lord MOYNEMy Lords, would the noble Lord consider the temporary use of St. George's Hospital, which I believe stands empty, or soon will?
§ Lord BELLWINMy Lords, I cannot comment on that as such. If it is a suggestion which my noble friend makes, then of course we will have a look at it.