§ 2.43 p.m.
Lord PAGET of NORTHAMPTONMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will advise British athletes to consider whether in view of Tanzania's invasion of Uganda they ought not to play games with Tanzanians until Tanzania has withdrawn her invading troops.
§ Lord TREFGARNENo, My Lords, there is no parallel between the situation in Uganda and that in Afghanistan. The question of offering advice to British athletes does not arise.
Lord PAGET of NORTHAMPTONMy Lords, why is there no parallel? The two expelled Amins seem to have been about equally objectionable; the armies of invasion are equally foreign. The distinction between them is that the Tanzanian army is behaving a good deal worse, by all accounts, than the Russian army and is equally, or, perhaps, even more, unwelcome to the inhabitants.
§ Lord TREFGARNEMy Lords, the noble Lord is misinformed. The invasion—it was not an invasion. The arrival—
§ Several noble Lords: Oh!
§ Lord TREFGARNEMy Lords, I asked for that! The arrival of Tanzanian troops in Uganda was, by all accounts, very much approved of by the Ugandan people at the time. I do not think that the same could be said for the Afghans.
§ Lord ELWYN-JONESMy Lords, is it not also the case that the Afghanistan Amin was murdered?
§ Lord TREFGARNEMy Lords, so I believe.
§ Lord BROCKWAYMy Lords, is it not a fact that the Ugandan troops attacked Tanzania before the Tanzanian troops went into Uganda; and is it not the view of the British High Commissioner in Nairobi that those killed in Uganda were killed not by Tanzanian troops in the first instance but by a mutinous regiment opposed to Amin?
§ Lord TREFGARNEMy Lords, it is certainly the case that the Ugandans, before the Tanzanian troops entered Uganda, had attacked Tanzania. As for the disorder that reigned in Uganda prior to that time, I think that the noble Lord is quite right.
Lord PAGET of NORTHAMPTONMy Lords, surely it is the Russian view, well supported, that the Afghans were attacking Russian territory across that border—just as they attacked us when w e were the local Empire—and that, according to the Russians, at any rate, the casualties are caused by the Afghans who resented the Soviet domination in the same way as the casualties were caused in Uganda by the Ugandans who objected to Tanzanian occupation. Is there any difference here apart from the general proposition that so long as it is black then, morally, it is right? After all, we cannot say anything to a man like President Nyrere, to whom we are so indebted for the advice he has given us about free elections.
§ Lord TREFGARNEMy Lords, if the purpose of that lengthy supplementary question is to suggest that the Russian invasion of Afghanistan was a response to an Afghan invasion of Russia, that assertion is absurd.
The Earl of SELKIRKMy Lords, can the noble Lord say whether there are still Tanzanian troops in Urganda, and whether there is still any hope of holding elections in that country some time during the coming summer?
§ Lord TREFGARNEMy Lords, I do not have the precise numbers of 1148 Tanzanian troops presently in Uganda but I understand that it is proposed to hold elections in the summer of 1981.
§ Lord STEWART of FULHAMMy Lords, has the noble Lord noticed that recently there have been parliamentary elections in the Soviet Union? Does it not look as if my noble friend Lord Paget has somehow missed his vocation and got into the wrong Legislature?
Lord CORK and ORRERYMy Lords, can the noble Lord say whether it is proposed to hold Olympic Games in Tanzania?
§ Lord TREFGARNENot that I have heard of, my Lords.
§ Lord HARMAR-NICHOLLSMy Lords, will my noble friend keep in mind that the important thing is that the invasion of Afghanistan was part of a recognisable pattern? That is not the case in Tanzania, and we hope that it will be something that will be rectified locally rather than making it the world issue that Afghanistan could develop into.
§ Lord TREFGARNEMy Lords, I think it is right that the invasion of Afghanistan threatens the security of the whole world. The same cannot he said of the troops now in Uganda.
§ Lord MILVERTONMy Lords, if it is considered right and proper to compete in sport against the Russians (and even, possibly, in Moscow), would the Minister not consider that it is about time that we let ourselves and the rest of the world compete with the South Africans in sport?
§ Lord TREFGARNEMy Lords, that is rather another matter. Our view is that if the Olympic Games were to continue in Moscow, it would provide a propaganda coup for the Russians which would be quite against world interests.
§ Lord WIGGMy Lords, has the noble Lord's approval of Tanzania extended to cover President Nyrere's statement yesterday that he wholly disapproves and is sceptical of the integrity of British Government policy in Rhodesia?
§ Lord TREFGARNEMy Lords, that is another question; but we have taken note of what President Nyrere said.