HL Deb 15 December 1980 vol 415 cc875-7
Lord Denham

My Lords, with the leave of the House, at a convenient moment after 3.30 p.m. my noble friend Lord Bellwin will repeat a Statement being made in another place on housing. That will be followed by my noble friend Lord Trefgarne repeating a Statement on American synthetic textiles.

Lord Wells-Pestell

My Lords, with the indulgence of your Lordships, I should like to ask the Government Chief Whip whether, in view of the length of the list of speakers who are due to speak in your Lordships' House today, any arrangement has been made for dinners tonight?

Lord Denham

My Lords, it is always a very difficult judgment to make as to whether it would be right for dinner to be provided in the Dining Room for your Lordships. Previous experience has shown that, when there is a debate or a Second Reading, if dinner is laid on not very many of your Lordships take advantage of the facility.

Lord Wells-Pestell

My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord the Government Chief Whip whether it is not a fact that all Members of the House have known for the best part of a week that there is in the region of 30 speakers? If that is the case, if would have seemed reasonable to give Members of your Lordships' House an opportunity (1) to eat, and (2) to use the facilities of the Guests' Dining Room.

Lord Denham

My Lords, I was under no illusion but that there would be a large number of speakers this evening. But I would draw the attention of your Lordships, and of the noble Lord in particular, to the fact that when we had a debate on defence two weeks ago and there were a very large number of speakers—I think quite as many as there are today—we did provide dinner in the Dining Room and that only marginally over 30 of your Lordships took advantage of it.

Viscount St. Davids

My Lords, I wonder whether account could be taken of the fact that, whereas in a debate on defence we can leave early in the afternoon and read the result of the debate the next day in Hansard, if there happens to be a Division at the end of a debate, then surely more Members of this House are likely to stay and require supper?

Lord Dehnam

My Lords, as I have said, it is a very difficult judgment to make and a great deal of thought was given to the matter. The Refreshment Department loses a lot of money in the evenings when dinner is provided and, it not being a Committee stage, there is not a constant attendance in your Lordships' House. I know that many noble Lords like to go out for dinner and then come back again. It may be for the interest of your Lordships to know that, in order to help out slightly, the Grill Room will this evening be open until 9.30 p.m. instead of the usual hour.

Lord Wells-Pestell

; My Lords, I promise not to take up the time of your Lordships' House after this question, but having listened to the Government Chief Whip, there would appear to be no yardstick now in existence whereby one can ascertain whether dinners are likely to be available except any announcement that the Government may make on the day. In the past we have been able to tell from the length of the list that there would be dinners and to take advantage of it either for oneself or to invite guests.

Lord Denham

My Lords, in the past it has been very rare to have dinner available in the Dining Room on days when there is a debate, either with or without a Division at the end, rather than a Committee stage when the numbers in your Lordships' House are rather more constant. However, the Refreshment Department is under considerable pressure to provide refreshment facilities at a reasonable cost to your Lordships and, as I say, if dinner is laid on and not enough of your Lordships attend the Refreshment Department makes a very considerable loss. However, as the noble Lord has expressed such anxiety about this, I think that the best thing would be to discuss the matter through the usual channels.

Lord Segal

My Lords, is it not a fair assumption that the speeches on the subject of seat belts are likely to be far shorter than the speeches on the subject of defence?

Baroness Gaitskell

My Lords, I quite understand that to lay on dinner every time we have a long debate is rather difficult, but does not the Refreshment Department show a lack of understanding here? It could make all sorts of other arrangements. It could expand facilities at the sandwich bar; it could have, not a full dinner but snacks. Surely there is a woman in the Refreshment Department; I know that we have a new man as head of that department. Surely it could show some kind of imagination.

Lord Denham

My Lords, I hope that the prognostication of the noble Lord, Lord Segal, that your Lordships will speak for a rather shorter length of time on seat belts than your Lordships did on defence, will prove to be true. As regards the remarks made by the noble Baroness, Lady Gaitskell, I think that the Refreshment Department shows a remarkable sense of self-preservation. As I have said, a certain amount of expansion has been arranged for this evening in that the Grill Room will be open for half an hour longer. But I think it would be best if we could discuss this matter through the usual channels. It might be best if we now carried on with the day's business.