HL Deb 28 April 1980 vol 408 cc1000-3

2.44 p.m.

Viscount HANWORTH

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the second Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they consider that sending out separate demands for general rates and for water charges is efficient or accept- able bearing in mind the extra work and expense placed on the consumer and the possibility of having to take separate action for enforcement of payment.

Lord MOWBRAY and STOURTON

My Lords, we think on balance that it is right that the water industry should, like others, collect its own charges. One has to remember that in fixing these charges water authorities are required under the Water Act 1973 to have regard to the cost of providing services. Consequently, although domestic consumers are currently charged mainly on the basis of rateable value, there needs to be scope for water authorities to adopt other systems, such as two-part tariffs and metering. Water authorities have in fact made savings by direct billing and consumers are now better informed about charges for the services they receive.

Viscount HANWORTH

My Lords, while thanking the Minister for that reply, may I ask whether he appreciates that having to reply to two separate demands first of all means two stamps of 12p and, for most of us who pay by cheque, an additional charge of 15p? If there are perhaps 20 million households in England, that conies to well over £1½ million. Surely, any administrative inconvenience would be far outweighed by that amount. Would the noble Lord agree that the definition of a civil servant must be one who serves the public and not his own administrative convenience?

Lord MOWBRAY and STOURTON

My Lords, I am not certain of the implication of the noble Viscount's last statement; civil servants serve their Ministries which serve the public, and the public decide at general elections whether they are content. As for what the noble Viscount said in the earlier part of his supplementary, which was more to the point, there is no reason why water authorities, which are authorities in themselves, should not do their own billing. Electricity boards and gas boards do their own billing. Why should water boards not do their own billing? There has never been any comparison with other services such as education and policing, which are charged to the general rates. I said in my main Answer that there was a saving. For instance, the Severn Water Authority estimates that its consumers alone have benefited by some £3½ million by direct debiting.

Lord STRATHSPEY

My Lords, is my noble friend aware that a great many people in this country are paying three rates, not two: one to the local authority in the shape of a general rate, a second to the water company for the supply of water, and a third to the water board, water authority or whatever it may be called, to cover sewerage, environmental river control and all sorts of other things?

Lord MOWBRAY and STOURTON

My Lords, I am not quite certain to what my noble friend was referring in the second part of that supplementary. Water authorities not only provide water—purified, clean and pure water such as very few countries have in such good supply—but also have one of the best sewerage systems in the world, and we should be proud of what we have. The average family in this country is still on average paying only £1 a week for all this service. I do not think we need hide our heads in shame about this. We are proud of what we have done in this sphere.

Lord PARGITER

My Lords, is it a fact that some water authorities examined the position in regard to direct billing and found that local authorities were charging them more to collect the water rates than it cost to do it themselves?

Lord MOWBRAY and STOURTON

Yes, my Lords, and I am grateful to the noble Lord for making that point. The average council was charging about 3 per cent. of all the money taken from the public, so the public were not getting a good bargain. I must point out that local authorities should be reducing that amount which now the water boards are charging out of their own rates. In other words, the rates in general would have been higher had the water rates not been paid separately.

Lord WYNNE-JONES

My Lords, were the laudatory remarks made by the Minister concerned with a national or privately-owned board?

Lord MOWBRAY and STOURTON

My Lords, the water authorities in this country, whether private or national, have in my opinion all done a splendid job.