§ 2.49 p.m.
§ Baroness PHILLIPSMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government what action is contemplated following the Baker report on ILEA.
§ The MINISTER of STATE, DEPARTMENT of EDUCATION and SCIENCE (Baroness Young)My Lords, my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Education and Science is today announcing that the Government have embarked on a comprehensive examination of the local government arrangements for the provision, administration and financing of education in Inner London. A further statement will be made when this examination has been completed.
§ Baroness PHILLIPSMy Lords, I am sure that the Minister will be glad to know that I appreciate her reply, bearing in mind that there is a great deal of concern about what appeared to be action on behalf of a report—a political report—which seemed to be curiously inaccurate. The parents, teachers and children concerned will be very glad to know that there is to be another inquiry.
§ Baroness YOUNGYes, my Lords; I am glad to have the recognition from the noble Baroness, Lady Phillips. The Government are in effect undertaking the review of the Inner London Education Service which the London Government Act 1963 said should be put before Parliament in 1970. In fact this provision was repealed by the Labour Government in 1967, but it was clearly intended by the legislators in 1963.
§ Baroness DAVIDMy Lords, may I ask the Minister what consultations are proposed with parents and the governors of the schools which will be affected in the 1004 Inner London Education Authority's area? May I also ask what notice the Government intend to take of the costs which might be involved, remembering that, in the Marshall Inquiry, which went into this matter in 1977–78, Sir Frank Marshall, now vice-Chairman of the Conservative Party, said that any break-up would greatly add to the financial problems facing London's local government? In a statement made more recently he said—this year—that only a fool would attempt it.
§ Baroness YOUNGMy Lords, with regard to the first part of the noble Baroness's supplementary question, the Government have already received a great many representations on this matter. Naturally we shall be willing to look at any further written expression of views from interested parties, whoever may submit them. We shall take full account of these and the earlier representations in the course of the present study.
So far as the cost is concerned, the unit costs of the Inner London Education Authority are generally higher than those of other education authorities, although they are not always the highest in every sector; and I recognise that there are special factors in London which affect costs. I think that it is worth looking at the analysis of individual authorities' estimates of expenditure which are contained in the education statistics published annually by the Chartered Institute of Public Finance and Accountancy, and copies of this are in the Library.
§ Baroness PHILLIPSMy Lords, bearing in mind that the Minister will be making another statement on the committee to be set up, may I ask her for an assurance that the committee will not be composed merely of Conservatives but will take into account all parties and all interests?
§ Baroness YOUNGMy Lords, this will be a Government examination of the matter, and plainly it concerns a number of other Ministers as well as my right honourable friend. The examination will be done in a way which involves them all.
§ Baroness DAVIDMy Lords, will the Minister agree that it is not only the education costs in Inner London that are higher than those in the areas of many 1005 other authorities, but that there are social services and housing costs, too, and these are not administered by the GLC or ILEA?
§ Baroness YOUNGMy Lords, I would not feel it appropriate at this moment to comment on the costs of other services, because the Question is concerned with education in London. However, we shall of course be looking at all aspects of this problem, and we recognise that the alteration of administrative arrangements for education in Inner London would have wide financial and educational implications.
§ Lord PEARTMy Lords, the noble Baroness has said that Government Ministers will look into this matter, but that means that there will be political decisions. Is she not aware that ILEA has been responsible for a fine example of the development of comprehensive education? Many of us feel that the party opposite is anxious to destroy ILEA, but is she aware that we hope it will survive?
§ Baroness YOUNGMy Lords, I note the points that the noble Lord has made on this matter. The Government have concluded that it would be right, particularly in view of the undertaking that was given in the 1963 Act, and which has never, for the reasons that I have already indicated, been fulfilled, to look at this matter. We are setting up a Government committee to do so, and we shall of course take into account all the points that have been made.
§ Lord AVEBURYMy Lords, does the answer of the Minister to the noble Baroness, to the effect that all parties will be involved in the inquiry, mean that they will not be represented on the body which is to conduct the inquiry, and that therefore it has already been decided to have an internal departmental inquiry, to which the political parties would merely be able to give evidence? If that is so, does the Minister recognise that it would be profoundly unsatisfactory to do this behind closed doors, and that what the public in London demand—in particular, the parents and teachers in Inner London—is that the examination should be conducted both thoroughly and in public?
§ Baroness YOUNGMy Lords, the way that the Government propose to conduct the inquiry is, I think, a normally accepted way of conducting inquiries of this nature. As I said in my original reply, we shall be publishing the result, but, since we have reached no conclusions at all on the matter, I cannot say precisely what form that might take. But of course we shall be very happy to receive evidence on this matter from anyone who cares to submit it.
§ Baroness PHILLIPSFinally, my Lords, is the Minister aware that this report, which is very far-reaching so far as ILEA is concerned, was received at County Hall only through indirect means, which, to put it at its lowest, seems highly discourteous, and, at its highest, really quite dangerous, because they obviously had no way of making comment on this? In some cases they read about it through the Press, and in other cases they obtained copies of the report quite indirectly.
§ Baroness YOUNGMy Lords, if the noble Baroness is referring in her remarks to the Baker Report, I should make it clear that this report was not commissioned by the Government, and therefore it is not for me to comment upon it. If the Government's own examination of the issues leads us to conclude that a major change is necessary, that would of course require legislation. Thus, naturally, there would be opportunity for consultation and public debate on any changes proposed.
§ Baroness PHILLIPSI am sorry, my Lords, but surely the Minister is incorrect. The report may not have been commissioned by the Government, but it was certainly set up by the Minister of State for Education. I am not quite sure whether that amounts to it having been commissioned by the Government, but the terms of reference specifically stated that it was set up by the Minister of State.
§ Baroness YOUNGMy Lords, this was not a Government report in the sense of the Government review that I have been speaking about in my answers to questions.
§ Baroness DAVIDMy Lords, I have here a report which says,
As has been widely reported in the Press, a committee of London Conservatives was established last autumn by the Secretary of State for Education and Science …".
§ Baroness YOUNGMy Lords, the noble Baroness is quoting from a report in a newspaper. I should like to give an assurance—
§ Lord PEARTNo—from ILEA.
§ Baroness YOUNGWell, my Lords, the noble Baroness may be quoting from ILEA. I should like to say, so far as the Baker Report is concerned, that it was not a Government report, and that what we are proposing to set up here is a Government committee to look at the whole question.