§ Lord LUCAS of CHILWORTHMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they can give any further details of their plan for wider ownership of the British National Oil Corporation.
§ The MINISTER of STATE, MINISTRY OF DEFENCE (Lord Strathcona and Mount Royal)My Lords, as my right honourable friend has already announced in another place, Her Majesty's Government are pursuing their objective of giving the public the chance to participate directly in BNOC's oil-producing business. A Statement will be made in due course.
§ Lord LUCAS of CHILWORTHMy Lords, while I have to thank my noble friend for his Answer, may I ask him two questions? Is he aware of the current monopoly position in gasoline production and distribution which is distorting the market, and is he able to give an assurance in that Statement that this monopoly position will not be extended? Secondly, can he give an assurance that such wider public ownership will be designed to ensure that sufficient of the assets will not fall into any one particular grouping, that may have an undue influence in both main and downstream operations?
§ Lord STRATHCONA and MOUNT ROYALMy Lords, I do not think the noble Lord is correct in saying that there is a monopoly in gasoline production and distribution. So far as the second part of his question is concerned, certainly we would not wish to create a monopoly.
§ Lord STRABOLGIMy Lords, is it intended to restrict private investment in BNOC to British companies and British citizens, so that control does not pass into the hands of foreigners?
§ Lord STRATHCONA and MOUNT ROYALMy Lords, I do not think a decision has been taken on the first part of the noble Lord's question. But the intention would certainly be not to see control pass to foreign companies.
§ The Earl of LAUDERDALEMy Lords, is my noble friend aware that the steps already taken with regard to BNOC, particularly to restrict their first option on farm-ins and assignments, have already helped to create new confidence in the North Sea?
§ Lord STRATHCONA and MOUNT ROYALMy Lords, I am grateful to the noble Earl. That is what we would have expected.
§ Lord AVEBURYMy Lords, irrespective of the merits of the proposals which the Government are to introduce, while interest rates are at an all-time high because of the Government's total failure to control inflation, is it not precisely the wrong moment to issue shares of any kind on the market?
§ Lord STRATHCONA and MOUNT ROYALMy Lords, I shall ignore the middle part of the noble Lord's question, with which we would not necessarily agree. I think that the question of the timing and the judgment of how to issue these shares is one of the things that still has to be decided.
§ Lord BROCKWAYMy Lords, in view of the reference to wider ownership in the Question, can the Minister say what ownership could be wider than ownership by the whole of our people through our Government?
§ Lord STRATHCONA and MOUNT ROYALMy Lords, that is a question which I asked when I was getting briefed for this Question. The short answer is that I think you have to distinguish between ownership by the Government and ownership by individuals or institutions.
§ Lord LEE of NEWTONMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that the answer he got was a shocking one?
§ Lord MURRAY of GRAVESENDMy Lords, will the Minister say whether the Government are thinking of any methods to ensure wider ownership, in the sense that the Conservative Party thinks of wider ownership, rather than the present limited method?
§ Lord STRATHCONA and MOUNT ROYALMy Lords, I am sorry but I do not think I quite understood the drift of the noble Lord's question.
§ Lord MURRAY of GRAVESENDMy Lords, ordinary people do not really deal in the Stock Exchange. That is really the point. I am wondering whether the Government ought to think about wider terms of doing it.
§ Lord STRATHCONA and MOUNT ROYALMy Lords, I think that this Government would believe in wider share ownership.
§ The Earl of ONSLOWMy Lords, is it not true that ordinary people do deal in the Stock Exchange through their pension funds, life insurance policies and all the other things which go to spread ownership of British industry, so far as is possible, among all classes of society, which is surely what we should encourage?
§ Lord STRATHCONA and MOUNT ROYALYes, my Lords, I would certainly agree with my noble friend, if he is suggesting that my noble friend opposite is peddling a rather outdated philosophy.
§ Lord STRABOLGIMy Lords, bearing in mind that the Government have said that they have no present plans to sell off BNOC's North Sea assets, will they also confirm that they have no future plans either, so that, since their very commendable U-turn—the first, I hope, of many—the oilfields may remain safe?
§ Lord STRATHCONA and MOUNT ROYALMy Lords, again I am not entirely clear about the drift of the noble Lord's question. The intention is not to realise the assets but to ensure a wider ownership of the assets which BNOC have acquired.
§ Lord LUCAS of CHILWORTHMy Lords, further to my noble friend's answer to my supplementary question regarding monopolies, may I ask him whether he is aware that, in their recent report, the Monopolies Commission accepted that there was a monopoly position already existing? Therefore, may I ask my noble friend again whether he can assure noble Lords and myself that such a position will not be further extended?
§ Lord STRATHCONA and MOUNT ROYALMy Lords, I have not read the report of the Monopolies Commission to which the noble Lord refers, but I just wonder whether he is getting muddled up between gas and petroleum.