HL Deb 08 November 1979 vol 402 cc984-6

3.8 p.m.

Lord AIREDALE

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether, since a number of the 5 million dwellings without loft insulation have no practical means of access to a loft, they will authorise grants up to the same £50 maximum for other approved means of insulation of such dwellings

Lord MOWBRAY and STOURTON

No, my Lords, the most cost-effective use of our limited resources is to secure the insulation of lofts and hot water tanks, wherever this is practicable.

Lord AIREDALE

My Lords, I am obliged to the noble Lord, but is not this rather cold comfort for the people who live in these houses? If a householder is prepared to pay very much more out of his own resources towards, for instance, double glazing in the living room, provided he can have a £50 grant to start him off, is that not £50 very well spent?

Lord MOWBRAY and STOURTON

My Lords, I take the noble Lord's point and it is a point I shall bring to my right honourable friend's attention. Basically, as the noble Lord and the House are aware, heat is lost through the ceiling, and I quite agree that there is quite a large element of draughts. But it is the cost-effectiveness which is the important point. There are some 2 million houses, such as the noble Lord described, without loft accessibility. There are still 3 million which have accessibility for lofts which have not yet been insulated.

Lord STRABOLGI

My Lords, are the Government aware that very often when a householder spends a lot of money on putting in insulation in order to conserve energy, the rating authorities then come along and increase the rateable value? May I ask the noble Lord whether he will try to do something about this? In the Department of Energy there was great concern, but we were not able to do anything with his department. Can he try to have more success than I had?

Lord MOWBRAY and STOURTON

My Lords, I think the noble Lord in his last sentence answered the question. I shall certainly advise my right honourable friends and they will note what he said, but I expect the same answer will come back.

Lord AVEBURY

My Lords, even with the incentive of the £50 grant, is it not taking an inordinately long time, as shown by the figure given by the Minister—of 3 million houses remaining uninsulated—for this work to be carried out? Would the Minister consider making it mandatory on local authorities to install roof insulation and giving them the power to recover the capital expenditure in the form of a small increase in rents which would allow those capital charges to be met?

Lord MOWBRAY and STOURTON

My Lords, it was only a week ago today that the Government started a new scheme allowing people in public authority housing to have this right to insulate their lofts. As from that date, a week ago today, we have started a large advertising campaign, especially in areas in the Midlands where previously the take-up of the grant was not as great as we would have wished, and we are strongly advising all local authorities to give every access possible. Furthermore, for older and poorer people the new rules will allow people to get the £50 grant without having to show a paid receipt. I think this will be a help in the take-up.

Lord AIREDALE

My Lords, if the argument being relied on is that not all the grants available are being taken up for loft insulation, may I ask the noble Lord if this is not an argument in favour of widening the scheme slightly so as to enable other people to have other forms of approved insulation grant-aided?

Lord MOWBRAY and STOURTON

My Lords, I am not sure whether the noble Lord is not back on his original Question. He is pushing at an open door if he wants to know what our wishes are; we would wish everyone to live in as perfect a house as possible, but what we are trying to do with our limited resources is to make sure that they get the best use possible of those limited resources.

Lord GLENAMARA

My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord to say whether the new rules change a very silly part of the old rules whereby a householder who had done a very small part of the insulation himself was ineligible for grant? Surely it was a ridiculous state of affairs that people who helped themselves could get no grant?

Lord MOWBRAY and STOURTON

My Lords, it has always been said that individual cases do not necessarily make good law. One feels sad at these cases, but the rules have always been there and they must apply before one can get something.