§ 3.13 p.m.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government what steps they have taken to combat the Arab boycott of Israel.
§ Lord TREFGARNEMy Lords, Her Majesty's Government have consistently and clearly stated their opposition to the boycott and have expressed the wish that 987 firms should take their attitude into account when deciding whether or how far to comply with boycott requirements. Both our posts overseas and the Department of Trade are willing to give all the help and advice they can to exporters who encounter problems. Your Lordships may have seen my Written Answer of 5th November to a Question tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Mishcon, which related to the authentication of certificates of negative origin.
Lord JANNERMy Lords, while thanking the noble Lord for what he said, may I ask if he would not agree that we are really succumbing to blackmail—which I call "blackmail"—against a people, the Israeli people, with whom a favourable balance of trade has continued for many years? Are we not treating that customer, an old customer, shamefully? Will the noble Lord please study what the Dutch Government have done in regard to these certificates? Will he be good enough to explain to those who approach him with a view to succumbing to that form of "blackmoil" that the United States have passed anti-boycott laws, yet trade with the Arab countries concerned has increased vastly in spite of it? Why cannot we do the same?
§ Lord TREFGARNEI cannot answer for the United States, my Lords. We have to judge this matter from our own British interests and we judge our interests presently anyway, that we should continue with the procedures that we have been following for the last year or so, with the minor change I announced the other day. As for the Dutch position to which the noble Lord referred, it is true that a number of resolutions have passed through the Dutch Parliament recently, but these have not yet been brought into law by the Dutch Government.
§ Lord BYERSMy Lords, will the Minister accept that in many quarters his Written Answer is regarded as purely cosmetic? When will the Government take the decision to end the discriminatory operation of validating these negative certificates of origin?
§ Lord TREFGARNEMy Lords, we will do that when we judge it in our interest to do so.
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, would the Government confirm and agree that recent indications in certain Arab quarters of a desire to help to induce a more rational attitude in Iran towards the West gives some hope that the Government, in concert with others, possibly in the European Community, might now approach the Arab community with a request that they should revise their policy of boycott against Israel?
§ Lord TREFGARNEMy Lords, we would certainly be ready to discuss this question in the European forum should it be raised, but we know of no desire that it should be.
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, does that mean that the United Kingdom representation in Europe would not raise it themselves but wait for somebody else to raise it? Surely this is a very worthwhile initiative that our own Government should take in Brussels?
§ Lord TREFGARNEWe have no plans to raise it at present, my Lords.
§ Lord BYERSMy Lords, I wonder whether the noble Lord, Lord Goronwy-Roberts, remembers telling the House that the British Government—that is, the last Government—would never want to be seen ahead of the pack? If that is so, is it not time this Government changed that policy and got ahead of the pack in the European Community?
§ Lord TREFGARNEMy Lords, I can go no further than I did before when I said that we will do that only when we judge it to be in our interests.
§ Lord REDCLIFFE-MAUDMy Lords, is the Minister aware that in the Select Committee, which was drawn from all parts of the House and of which Lord Caccia was a member, there was unanimity in rejecting the evidence of the Foreign Office, given that the authentication was merely of the signature and did not imply any approval of the boycott document? Is he aware that we felt very strongly in that committee that the Government should get out of the boycott process in which they are now involved and will continue to be involved until they cease this authentication process?
§ Lord TREFGARNEMy Lords, the authentication process, as the noble Lord and the members of that committee will know, is only the authentication of the signature to the document; it has no relation to the content or accuracy of the document itself. We have recently taken steps, as I announecd the other day, to make that doubly clear to those who use this service.
Lord PAGET of NORTHAMPTONMy Lords, as in the case earlier in regard to Nigeria, are we not here concerned with what is a British interest because open trade with. Israel is as much a British interest as it is an Israeli interest? Is this not just another instance of the weak-kneed attitude of the Foreign Office in defending the interests of this country whenever they are challenged by any crackpot regimes throughout the world?
§ Lord TREFGARNECertainly not, my Lords. British interest in terms of trade with the Arab countries is just as important as trade with Israel.
Lord JANNERMy Lords, may I put a last question to the noble Lord? Will he be good enough to study the position with regard to the American situation? Is he aware that none of the fears that were expressed when the anti-boycott legislation was under consideration have been justified and that, instead, trade has increased very considerably? Is he further aware that at the present time most of the Arab world is not included in the boycott and that we have nothing to fear from blackmail any more?
§ Lord TREFGARNEMy Lords, as I said earlier, I cannot answer for the Government of the United States. We have to judge our interests as we find them, and the American Government must do likewise.
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, may I ask the noble Lord whether he will clarify one point? Is he in fact saying that the Government will support the Arab boycott of Israel if it is in the financial interest of this country to do so?
§ Lord TREFGARNENo, my Lords. The Government oppose all boycotts which lack international sanction and authority. We deplore the limitations 990 which the Arab boycott imposes on the commercial freedom of our firms and the extraneous political considerations it introduces into the conduct of our economic and commercial relations with Israel and the Arab States.
§ Lord JACQUESMy Lords, is the Minister aware that eight months ago from the place where he is now sitting I gave exactly the same answers as he has given? There is at least one thing on which we are agreed.
§ Lord TREFGARNEMy Lords, I am interested to hear that, and it confirms my view that our predecessors were just as anxious as we are to maintain British interests.