§ 2.53 p.m.
§ Lord HATCH of LUSBYMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
228§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will offer special economic aid to the Government of Tanzania to help to pay the cost of Tanaznian participation in the overthrow of Amin of Uganda.
§ The FOREIGN SECRETARY and MINISTER FOR OVERSEAS DEVELOPMENT (Lord Carrington)My Lords, it would be wrong to use development aid directly or indirectly for military purposes.
§ Lord HATCH of LUSBYMy Lords, does the noble Lord agree that Britain has a special responsibility in this case, in view of the obvious welcome that was given at the time to the overthrow of ex-President Obote, and bearing in mind that both President Nyerere and President Kaunda from the start condemned the racialism of ex-President Amin, as well as the fact that the world has now been rid of a dictator by the action of a very poor country? Does the noble Lord also agree that it is the duty of all members, both of the Commonwealth and of the world community, to lend that country support in the use of her treasure in a task which affects us all and which is an international obligation?
§ Lord CARRINGTONMy Lords, it is undeniable that the result of this matter was not unwelcome, but there is only a certain amount of money to go round, and I think it better if we use the money to help the poor in the underdeveloped countries.
§ Lord LEE of NEWTONMy Lords, is there no way in which we can assist by using the legislation on pest control?
Lord PAGET of NORTHAMPTONMy Lords, can the noble Lord tell us whether the President of Tanzania advised us, or asked our advice, before invading a fellow member of the Commonwealth?
§ Lord CARRINGTONNot to my knowledge, my Lords; but perhaps that supplementary question would be better addressed to members of the noble Lord's own party.
§ Lord BARNBYMy Lords, in view of what has been asked, may I inquire 229 whether the incursion of Tanzanian armed forces into a contiguous country was with, or without, the invitation of the United Nations?
§ Lord CARRINGTONMy Lords, so far as I know, it was without it.
Lord ORAMMy Lords, may I ask the noble Lord whether Her Majesty's Government will continue the policy of concentrating aid mostly in the poorest countries and for the benefit of the poorest people in those poorest countries? If that is to be the case, as I hope it will be, will not Tanzania qualify for priority in receiving aid, quite apart from the reasons advanced by my noble friend in his supplementary question?
§ Lord CARRINGTONYes, my Lords: the noble Lord is absolutely right. That is exactly what I have said, and of course we give large amounts of aid to Tanzania for the purposes of development and of relieving poverty.
§ Baroness GAITSKELLMy Lords, is the noble Lord surprised that countries in Southern Africa are turning to the Soviet Union, thus eliciting a phobia about Marxism which might be reduced if we helped countries like Tanzania in these circumstances?
§ Lord CARRINGTONMy Lords, as I have already said, we are helping Tanzania in the development of its economy and in aiding the poor in the underdeveloped parts of the country. I think that the aid is much better spent in that way, rather than as military aid.
§ Lord BROCKWAYMy Lords, referring to the question put to the Minister from the Government Benches, may I ask whether it is not a fact that the first invasion was by Uganda into Tanzania, as would be endorsed by the High Commission in Nairobi? Furthermore, in view of the poverty of Tanzania, quite apart from military action, ought not this Government to give more aid to that country in seeking to build its new society?
§ Lord CARRINGTONMy Lords, I do not think that I have anything to add. I have made the Government's position clear; and I think that that is where we stand.