HL Deb 20 February 1979 vol 398 cc1689-92

2.42 p.m.

Lord GISBOROUGH

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will confirm that Mr. Joseph Thompson was recently expelled from a trade union because, 14 years ago at the age of 17, he had worked tem- porarily for a firm blacked by the union, and was therefore sacked under a closed shop agreement; and whether they intend to take action to prevent other people from suffering a similar fate.

Lord WALLACE of COSLANY

My Lords, employers are not required to notify the Government of their engagements and dismissals. However, the Question accurately reflects the accounts given in detailed Press coverage of Mr. Thompson's case last year. Mr. Thompson appealed to the TUC's Independent Review Committee set up two years ago at the Government's request to consider this sort of case, and I understand that as a result the union has suspended his expulsion while he considers his appeal to its executive.

Lord GISBOROUGH

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for his Answer, but is it not high time that the Government showed, by word and deed through legislation, their support for the right to work and that there should be justice to the private individual citizen rather than to appease the wishes of the unelected, unrepresentative and highly unpopular trade union extremists?

Lord WALLACE of COSLANY

My Lords, that is not quite fair so far as the Government are concerned. First, the Government requested the TUC to consider this matter, and as a result the Independent Review Committee was set up. Furthermore, in the Code of Conduct recently issued we have indicated that we would like a broader approach to aspects of the closed shop. The situation is this, if I may sum it up: should a case arise in any area where a trade unionist is expelled from his union for some reason or another, the proper procedure—which was not necessarily followed in Mr. Thompson's case, might I add—is that he should appeal to the union executive. If the decision goes against him, he should then appeal to the Independent Review Committee, and after that he has his legal rights, of which every member should be fully aware.

Lord ROCHESTER

My Lords, would the noble Lord agree that it would be more equitable if appeals against exclusion from trade union membership were heard not by the Review Committee set up by the TUC in 1976 but by a body altogether independent of the trade union movement?

Lord WALLACE of COSLANY

My Lords, the Government do not take that view. The Opposition wanted an appeal tribunal, but we feel, quite rightly in my estimation, that this procedure is far simpler. In view of the membership of the Committee, I think the rights of the individual are fully protected. I think the noble Lord must obviously be aware of the membership of the Independent Review Committee.

Lord MONSON

My Lords, could the noble Lord say why the Government apparently oppose the idea of compensation for the unfortunate victims of the closed shop?

Lord WALLACE of COSLANY

My Lords, after all, the individual having failed to obtain redress has his legal rights, and that is where the question of compensation can arise.

Earl ALEXANDER of TUNIS

My Lords, would this not be a case where the person concerned—in this case Mr. Thompson—can take civil action through the normal court of law?

Lord WALLACE of COSLANY

That is the case, my Lords. In Mr. Thompson's case, I should like to put it this way: It has gone back to the union executive, because in fact he did not approach the union executive in the form of an appeal. If that appeal fails, he can go to the Independent Review Committee, and if that fails he can then take legal steps to obtain redress.

Baroness ELLES

My Lords, the Minister has talked a great deal about legal rights. I wonder whether he would be kind enough to inform the House exactly what legal rights such a person has and under what Act?

Lord WALLACE of COSLANY

My Lords, I cannot give the noble Baroness the full details of that now, but it is a known fact that cases have arisen where an appeal has been made by an individual against wrongful dismissal and he has secured his rights in that case.

Baroness ELLES

My Lords, I think the Minister has not quite answered my question. If he cannot answer it now—and I quite accept that it is a difficult point—I would be most grateful if he would be kind enough to write to me and give me the details of the rights of such a citizen in this kind of case.

Lord WALLACE of COSLANY

My Lords, I will certainly write to the noble Baroness. I have a feeling that she already knows the answer herself.

Baroness EMMET of AMBERLEY

My Lords, could I ask the Minister whether, when he writes this letter, he will include details of the cost of such an appeal.

Lord WALLACE of COSLANY

Not without notice, my Lords.

Baroness SEEAR

My Lords, in this letter, which is now going to be a very long letter, could the Minister include where this man would stand in relation to the European Convention on Human Rights and what prospect he might have if he took his case to the European Court?

Lord WALLACE of COSLANY

My Lords, that could be included. In point of fact, if it were not for taking up the time of the House at Question Time we could answer that at some length, but I do not wish to do that. I will write.