HL Deb 13 February 1979 vol 398 cc1096-9

2.45 p.m.

Baroness VICKERS

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government, in view of the fact that probation officers, police, teachers and firemen have separate negotiating machinery, whether they consider that the National Joint Council is itself an appropriate body to determine the salaries and service conditions of social workers; and whether they will consider providing separate negotiating machinery, as the different nature of their job calls for distinct salary and service conditions.

The PARLIAMENTARY UNDERSECRETARY of STATE, DEPARTMENT of the ENVIRONMENT (Baroness Stedman)

My Lords, the scope and constitution of the National Joint Council for Administrative, Professional, Technical and Clerical Services is determined by agreement between the local authorities as employers and the unions representing their white collar staff, including social workers. It would be for the parties to that agreement to consider whether changes in the negotiating machinery for social workers were to be appropriate.

Baroness VICKERS

My Lords, while thanking the noble Baroness for that reply, may I ask whether she intends giving any guidance, or having any discussions with them to see if this very difficult problem can be settled? Also, could she tell me how many are still on strike and what action the Government propose to take?—because this is a very important service and much needed.

Baroness STEDMAN

My Lords, in so far as the negotiating machinery is concerned, this is not a matter in which the Government can intervene. It is a matter between the local authorities and the white collar workers themselves. If they come to us jointly and say that is how they want things, we would raise no objections. In so far as the present situation is concerned, I am not able at this moment to give the noble Baroness figures. What I can say is that a new national framework for the grading of individual social workers was agreed by the National Joint Council last week. We hope that this will lead to a quick return to work of those social workers who are still on strike, and the Secretary of State for Social Services is considering whether there are ways in which he can help social workers and the agencies within which they work to get over the bitterness and the damage which industrial action so often causes.

Baroness FAITHFULL

My Lords, may I ask the Minister whether that means that her right honourable friend is likely to set up a committee of inquiry into the structure and management of the social workers, in view of the disturbance and distress both on the part of the public and those receiving the service? May I further ask the Minister whether her right honourable friend could not intervene, perhaps on a voluntary basis, in the present negotiating machinery?—which I think perhaps is not very satisfactory in view of the fact that those on the councils are not social workers and do not know the work.

Baroness STEDMAN

My Lords, to take the second part of the question first, the social services functions, as the noble Baroness knows, are exercised by the local authorities under the general guidance of the Secretary of State for Social Services. He has no statutory responsibilities or powers for any specific functions to be performed by himself, save in certain cases under default powers. The local authorities are also wholly responsible for the pay and conditions of service of their own workers. Therefore it is for them, in consultation with their staff, to determine the most appropriate negotiating arrangements. Negotiations covering this group of staff in the National Joint Council for the Administrative, Professional, Technical and Clerical Services has now teached a successful conclusion. As I said earlier, we hope this will mean that the social workers will go back.

Regarding the earlier question asked by the noble Baroness, my right honour- able friend has not decided to have a committee of inquiry. He feels it would be a very serious matter to take negotiations out of the hands of the negotiators within the existing machinery, however inadequate noble Lords may think that machinery is. A new national framework for the grading of the individual social workers was agreed by the National Joint Council last week. We hope this means that they are soon going back to work, and the Secretary of State is considering whether there are ways in which he can help the social workers and also the relationship between the social workers and the public. The public's expectation of what they think they ought to get from the social service is obviously a related matter, but my right honourable friend does not think it right for a committee of inquiry.

Lord DERWENT

My Lords, there was one statement made by the noble Baroness which I did not quite understand: it may be my ignorance. She said that the Government have no right to interfere in the negotiations between the parties concerned. She went on to say that, if they came to an agreement, the Government would not interfere—but have they the right to interfere, if they cannot do so at the beginning?

Baroness STEDMAN

My Lords, we have no statutory right to intervene, save in the question of default powers; and we do not consider that the current situation of industrial action calls for default powers. It is a matter between the local authorities and the employers themselves. We have no statutory powers in that respect.

Lord ROCHESTER

My Lords, can the noble Baroness go a little further and, contrary to the suggestion put forward by the noble Baroness, Lady Vickers, agree that, far from there being need for even more separate negotiating procedures within the machinery for pay determination in the public services, there is room for a more unified approach to these matters?

Baroness STEDMAN

No, my Lords. I should not want to go as far as that, because there are differences in all local authority areas. There are differences in the social strains and in the demands that are made on the social services. The new salary range, and the new structure for the three grades of social workers, takes into account the level of duties and responsibilities. It gives scope for re-grading which we have said need not wait until the annual pay talks in July, but can take place right away. We hope that it will be possible for local authorities to slot their present social workers into these three gradings, to give them job satisfaction and, also, to have regard to the type of circumstances in which they have to work within the individual local authorities.

Lord BALOGH

My Lords, will my noble friend agree that a fractioning of the negotiating agency makes for leap-frogging inflation?

Baroness STEDMAN

My Lords, there are historical reasons why teachers, firemen, police, probation officers and other people have their own negotiating machinery. But the scope and constitution of the administrative, professional, technical and clerical services are, at this point of time, all in one. If the two sides to the argument came to the Government and said: "Yes, this is how we should like it to be," and asked for separate negotiating machinery, we should agree to that if it were the wish of both sides. But at the moment that suggestion has not come forward from the social workers.

Lord BALOGH

My Lords, will my noble friend read the paper called A Better Way, which is admirably subscribed to by five or six trade union leaders?

Baroness STEDMAN

My Lords, I think I should want notice of that question. It goes rather wider than the original Question.