§ 3.21 p.m.
Baroness WARD of NORTH TYNE-SIDEMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the first Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they have any more to report on their representations to the Soviet Union on the unfair undercutting of merchant shipping freights.
§ Baroness STEDMANMy Lords, there is nothing further to report. We await evidence of Soviet willingness to meet our 810 concerns in specific problem areas. In the meantime, proposals for the monitoring of certain trade routes in which Soviet lines operate are under consideration within the EEC.
Baroness WARD of NORTH TYNE-SIDEMy Lords, while thanking the noble Baroness for that rather unsatisfactory reply, may I say that I am sure she will be aware that the Soviet Minister of Shipping has been in this country for some time? Could the noble Baroness say who he has seen, whether he has seen Members of the Government, and, if so, whether they were pleased or displeased with him? Can she also say whether the Chamber of Shipping have seen him and, if so, whether they were pleased or displeased with him? As a result of this, does the noble Baroness think that any further action can be taken? —because I know the Government are as interested as we are that some action should be taken. Does she think that further action can be taken over this very annoying question which arises in connection with the Soviet Union?
§ Baroness STEDMANMy Lords, I accept that we have considerable problems on this aspect of the Soviet Union's intervention in merchant shipping. Regarding the noble Baroness's long list of who saw who and what they said to one another, I shall have to take advice on that and perhaps write to her. I am not in a position to give her that information at the moment. What I can say is that the United Kingdom and Soviet officials continue to meet, within the context of the British-Soviet Joint Maritime Commission. That Commission meets only once a year, but it does discuss the current problems concerning the bilateral and Third Country trades. We had a meeting in Moscow in June, when the United Kingdom reiterated the basic position that accommodation in general would be dependent on progress in specific areas. There are certain recommendations before the EEC. I understand there is a further meeting of the Transport Ministers' Council next week, when further consideration will be given to the proposals for monitoring.
Baroness WARD of NORTH TYNE-SIDEMy Lords, may I thank the noble Baroness and just ask her, when she does write to me—and I am very grateful for her promise to do so—whether the reply 811 can be published in Hansard so that everybody can see what the position really is? I like to know everything!
§ Baroness STEDMANMy Lords, if the noble Baroness would send me a Question for Written Answer without my writing to her on this oral one, then it would get published in Hansard.
§ Lord KILMARNOCKMy Lords, may I ask the noble Baroness whether it is not the case that the EEC monitoring system has already been agreed on? Might I therefore further ask whether it has been put into practice and, if so, when its first six-monthly report may be expected?
§ Baroness STEDMANMy Lords, certain suggestions were made regarding monitoring as to the extent to which we should try to monitor and on which routes we should try to get the information. The suggestion before them at the moment is that we should monitor the African routes, where there seems to be rather more intervention by BESTA than on some of the others. We are trying to get our EEC partners to agree with us on the seriousness of this proposal. We do not think it is something on which the United Kingdom can take unilateral action. We want this to be a co-ordinated effort. As I say, the various proposals are coming up again before the Transport Ministers next week in the EEC. After that, I may have something further to report.
§ Lord WIGGMy Lords, could the noble Baroness say whether there is some formula by which Her Majesty's Government or the EEC decide whether merchant shipping tariffs fall into the category of being "fair" or "unfair"?
§ Baroness STEDMANMy Lords, there are maritime organisations, of which the United Kingdom is a member, which agree generally on what are the recommended tariffs within certain areas. The Soviet line BESTA is not a party to those agreements and they operate, we think, an excessive level of service. We accept that their tariff undercutting has had a serious effect on shipping interests in the United Kingdom and on other Western lines; but they are not part of the organisation which has this tariff agreement.
§ Lord WIGGMy Lords, surely what the noble Baroness is describing is, on the one hand, the EEC countries, of which the United Kingdom is one, operating as a monopoly, whereas, on the other hand, the Soviet Union is acting in a way which ought to commend itself to noble Lords on the other side of the House, acting as entrepreneurs. Surely in those circumstances those who believe in competition would welcome something which may be regarded as awkward for a monopoly in the reduction of prices. May I say that to describe it as "unfair" is the cry that always goes up from a monopoly when it is hurt?
§ Baroness STEDMANThat may be one description of it, my Lords, but the fact remains that Russia has got an unfair advantage over the United Kingdom and the other Western nations in their shipping.
Lord CAMPBELL of CROYMy Lords, can the noble Baroness tell the House when the Government expect to be in a position to report anything on this subject?—as my noble friends have been raising this subject for about two years and it has been longer than that since the General Council of British Shipping began drawing attention to it. Will the Government bear in mind that the British shipping industry is the biggest by far of the EEC partners and also that the blatant undercutting by the Soviet Union is completely uncompetitive?—so that there is no question of fair competition, as was put forward by the noble Lord, Lord Wigg.
§ Baroness STEDMANMy Lords, the United Kingdom Government are satisfied that we have to take up a defensive position on the question of the Soviet Union's undercutting so far as merchant shipping is concerned. What I said was that we do not think this is something on which the United Kingdom can go it alone. We want the support of our EEC partners, and what we are trying to agree with them at the moment is: which routes shall we monitor and what shall we try to ascertain from the monitoring that we are doing? Having done the monitoring, if we then show that there is a really serious situation arising, we would hope to persuade our EEC partners on the kind of redress that we might try for in this situation, in the hope that the Soviets would recognise the 813 degree of concern that exists among all the EEC member States. Perhaps they can then assist us by showing a greater willingness to pursue some accommodation with the Western States. As I say, there are still discussions going on at officer level within the EEC countries on the question of monitoring, which routes shall be monitored and how the information shall be collected and dealt with. This, no doubt, will be one of the items for discussion at the Transport Ministers' meeting next week, after which I would hope there might be something further to report.
§ Viscount MASSEREENE and FERRARDMy Lords—
§ The LORD PRIVY SEAL (Lord Peart)My Lords, I think that noble Lords would like to rest on this.