§ 3.38 p.m.
Baroness WARD of NORTH TYNE-SIDEMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the second Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will publish the report of the firm OTRAG on spy satellites.
§ The MINISTER of STATE, FOREIGN and COMMONWEALTH OFFICE (Lord Goronwy-Roberts)My Lords, it is not clear to which report the noble Baroness is referring. OTRAG is a private company based in the Federal Republic of Germany, and its activities in the Federal Republic of Germany and Zaire are a matter for the Governments of those two countries.
Baroness WARD of NORTH TYNESIDEMy Lords, while thanking the noble Lord for what is an absolutely useless reply, if I may say so, may I ask him whether somebody in the Government has watched the "Panorama" showings on OTRAG and a very good "Panorama" showing on certain other matters of 814 defence? May I also, while I am saying this, congratulate BBC 1 on the research and everything that they did to bring these matters to the attention of the public? Can the noble Lord tell me whether anybody from the Ministry of Defence, or whatever Ministry is concerned, watched "Panorama" and, if so, whether they have taken any action? I should like to congratulate BBC 1.
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, I am delighted to hear that the noble Baroness feels like congratulating the BBC on an excellent series of programmes, even if she does not feel like congratulating Ministers. The point is that this was not a report. We understood the Question—in so far as we did understand it—to refer to a specific report. We know of no such report about activities such as those mentioned in the noble Baroness's Question. The stated aim of OTRAG is to develop, test and exploit commercially a cheap rocket-launcher for customers who are interested in putting photo-reconnaissance and civil satellites into orbit. The Government of the Federal Republic of Germany have informed us that they have absolutely no connection with this private company. The Council of the Western European Union has looked into the allegations about this private company being engaged in missile launching, and has found absolutely no basis to justify those allegations. I am most anxious to assist the noble Baroness and I have tried to do so. There is no such report, and if there are such allegations we have found no evidence to support them.
§ Lord GLENDEVONMy Lords, can we know what is OTRAG?
§ Lord WYNNE-JONESMy Lords, will my noble friend agree that it is astonishing that a private company is allowed to set up virtually an independent State within an African State? Will he agree that, according to the information given on the BBC report, this company has complete control over access to that part of the African State, and that it is able to sell very dangerous weapons to any person—not just a country—in the world? Does he agree that this is a matter of international importance, and not to be dismissed as something between the Governments of Germany and Zaire?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, I cannot confirm what the noble Lord has said. He may or may not be right. I am asked whether this is so. We have found no evidence of this. The British Embassy in Kinshasa, for instance, has no locus standi to make an official inspection of a private, foreign installation in the territory of another country. But I can tell the House that the embassy has reported on this installation on the basis of reliable first-hand information, and has confirmed precisely what I have said to the House. Beyond that I cannot go; otherwise, I should be misleading the House. As to the importance of this, certainly it is very important and, internationally, it needs to be looked at very carefully. We are among those who are pressing forward with precisely that study, not related to this particular company but occasioned by this and similar allegations, which need to be studied so that a concerted and organised formulation of control can be agreed to by all countries; not by one, two or three.
§ Lord GLENDEVONMy Lords, what is OTRAG?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, the acronym OTRAG reflects the German title of this company. In English, it would be the Orbital Transport and Rocket Company. In German, it would be the Orbital Transport und Raketen-Aktiengesellschaft.
§ Lord HALEMy Lords, is not my noble friend aware, particularly as this point has already been put by my other noble friend, that the suggestion that a vast area of land, larger than some African countries, has been set aside under military guard to permit these operations to be conducted in privacy, is a matter of the gravest concern and one which can hardly have escaped the notice of our Ambassador in Zaire? Surely, it is a matter on which we should proceed through either the Western European Union or the United Nations, to get fuller information on what appears to be a very grave menace indeed.
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSI agree, my Lords. I have listened very carefully to everything which has been 816 said. I am sure that the House has noted what I have said in regard to the sovereignty of a country in permitting the use of any part of its ground, or indeed its sky-space, for operations, especially if they have civilian motivation. Most countries, including our own, will have set aside certain ground space for operations of this kind which might, or might not, occasion query in other countries. We have to proceed on the basis of equality of entitlement and practice as between all countries. But I agree that this needs to be watched very carefully, and I have taken full note of what various Members of your Lordships' House have had to say about the matter.
§ Lord BROCKWAYMy Lords, may I ask the Minister whether what he himself said has not indicated the importance of international action to deal with this problem? While Western Germany and Zaire are directly affected, surely, when you have a private company occupying vast territory, evicting the African population, except those who are working for them, sending into space satellites for military purposes and being prepared to send them anywhere, that is an occasion when there should be international action? Could not Her Majesty's Government ask that before these things are done there should be an international licence for that purpose?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, I really must point out once more that there is no evidence, of which we are aware, that any part of the operations of this company is militarily motivated; that it is entirely a civilian organisation. That is the evidence that we have on very reliable grounds. As to the need for an international regime to govern even civilian activity in this field, yes, I think there is a case for that. In the meantime, we are watching this kind of situation with very great care and attention.
§ Lord HANKEYMy Lords, is it not remarkable that a private company is able to produce satellites which this country, with its present economic performance and military potential, is quite unable to equal? Might there not be advantages in our buying some, when they are ready?