§ 2.48 p.m.
§ The Earl of KIMBERLEYMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government when they will give the go-ahead to the sales team from British Aerospace to visit China and sell the Harrier.
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, I understand that the Chinese authorities are still at an early stage in considering their possible defence equipment requirements. Harrier is one of the items in which they are thought to be interested, but no official inquiry has been received.
§ The Earl of KIMBERLEYMy Lords, while thanking the noble Lord for that Answer, may I ask whether it is true that Her Majesty's Government have said 307 that they are willing to do trade with China in matters of defence? Secondly would the noble Lord agree that when the last Chinese delegation visited this country they expressed great interest in the Harrier? Lastly, would he agree that we have to make the first move and present the Chinese with a package deal, because they are terrified that they may lose face if they come to us and we say, "No"?
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, the noble Earl is correct as regards the first of his three questions. Her Majesty's Government are willing to do a deal with China. The other two questions I cannot answer, because I have no information about discussions that are going on.
§ Lord SHINWELLMy Lords, is it necessary to wait for an inquiry before we proceed? Is it not in the interests of British industry that we should come to some arrangement with the Chinese? Also, is it not particularly in the interests of NATO that China should be provided with adequate arms?
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, we have to respond to Chinese requirements, but no official inquiry has yet been received from the Chinese.
§ The Earl of KIMBERLEYMy Lords, may I put to the noble Lord again what I put to him in the third part of my question, which was: why can we not go to China with a package deal and say: "Here it is: would you or would you not like to buy it?"
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, one has to be invited in these matters. We have not yet been invited.
§ Lord SOAMESMy Lords, could the noble Lord tell me whether the Harrier is or is not on the COCOM list? Secondly, can he tell me whether the British Government are considering inaugurating a review of which countries are or are not on the COCOM list? For instance, is Cuba on the COCOM list? Thirdly, could the noble Lord tell me whether or not there should necessarily be even-handed treatment in regard to the supply of military equipment by all our partners in COCOM towards different countries for whom these regulations apply?
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, of course we take account of the views of our partners through consultative machinery provided by COCOM. The United States is a member of COCOM, and naturally we take their views into account when considering arms sales. That is as far as I can go in the matter at this moment.
§ Lord SOAMESMy Lords, I am very sorry, but will the noble Lord say whether or not the Harrier is on the COCOM list? If that is so, it might well prohibit us from selling it to the Russians, but would it necessarily prohibit us from selling it to the Chinese?
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, that is a very interesting theological point. Obviously, discussions have taken place with the Chinese about the Harrier. We are waiting for their response. Let us see what they have to say, before we do anything. We cannot force the Harrier upon them.
§ Lord SHINWELLMy Lords, am I to take it that we never offer to sell arms to any countries, outside Communist countries, until they make inquiry? Is that what is called British salesmanship?
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, selling arms is not like selling tinned foods. It is something very different. One must be approached, before one offers to sell military equipment. Then one has to obtain the views of one's allies. It is as simple as that.
§ Lord SOAMESMy Lords, will the noble Lord assure us that we are not leading the Chinese Government up the path here? In other words, can the noble Lord assure us that, if they apply and would like to buy the Harrier, we are ready to sell it to them?
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, the noble Lord almost certainly knows as well as I do of the presence in this country of an important delegation. I do not know what has gone on in discussions. There is something called commercial inconfidence, which the noble Lord should well know about, and that is what covers the present situation.