§ 2.44 p.m.
§ Lord CLIFFORD of CHUDLEIGHMy Lords, by way of declaring my interest may I, as president of the Devon Association of Parish Councils, with over 400 125 parish halls on its books, beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government why the Department of Education and Science has refused an adequate grant to Devon County Council to cover completion of the Beaford village hall after the villagers had raised the sum of £10,650 and received offers from parish, district and county councils.
§ The MINISTER of STATE, DEPARTMENT of EDUCATION and SCIENCE (Lord Donaldson of Kingsbridge)My Lords, the Department's support for local projects of this kind depends on decisions taken by the local education authorities. Authorities submit a programme of voluntary youth and community projects to which they themselves are willing to contribute, and the Department then announces the total amount it will pay in grants towards the cost of projects in each authority's area. The selection of projects for support, within that sum, is then a matter for the authority. The demand for grant this year exceeded the total sum available, so many authorities have had to choose between projects for support.
§ Lord CLIFFORD of CHUDLEIGHMy Lords, while I thank the noble Lord for that reply, which was not entirely unexpected, may I ask whether or not it was the understanding before the limitations were announced by the Minister last autumn that, if the parish—in this case a parish with a population of 360—raised 25 per cent. of the total of the sum required, the Government, one way or another and through district, parish or county councils, would supply the rest of the money?
Would the Minister not agree that a small community such as this one cannot raise so large a sum of money overnight? In fact, it is quite fantastic, I think, that they have done it at all. Therefore does it not smack of retrospective legislation or going back on a given word to refuse the extra £14,000 needed to finish the job?
§ Lord DONALDSON of KINGS-BRIDGEMy Lords, as regards the first part of the noble Lord's supplementary 126 question, I have no information about any promise made by the Government to meet the total sum if 25 per cent. were found. I shall inquire about this. It is a most unlikely promise to have been made; but, if it was made, I will acknowledge it. As regards the second point, I think that the local people have done marvellously. The grant of £30,600 which has been made to Devon for their five projects (of which Beaford village hall is one) represents 68 per cent. of what the county authorities bid for. I understand that this grant will enable Devon to include a first instalment of the Beaford hall project within its programme.
§ Lord YOUNG of DARTINGTONMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware—and I do not suppose that he is—of the extent of feeling on this question not only in the village of Beaford but also in the surrounding villages which the proposed village hall will serve?—an extent of feeling which is due, as the noble Lord, Lord Clifford of Chudleigh, has said, partly to the fact that so much time has already been spent in raising over £10,000 for this hall. Even though it is not possible now to go back on what happened last year, will he urge upon his colleagues in the Department of Education and Science following this noble effort that, at any rate in the coming year, the full grant should be given as it has been in accordance with practice in the past in many counties of this country?
§ Lord DONALDSON of KINGS-BRIDGEMy Lords, I am aware that there is a good deal of feeling locally; and my colleagues are as distressed as are noble Lords. But the way these things are done is a standard way. The final decision has to be made by the local authority and the Department can give only the share of the total amount that is available. Surrenders of grant allocation by other authorities may, I think it is just worth saying, make it possible to increase Devon's allocation even now; but at the moment I can give no undertaking that this will be so. It may be clearer in a month or so. In any case I will pass on my noble friend's views to my colleagues.
§ Lord THORNEYCROFTWill the noble Lord pass on something else too—that it may be a good thing to spend a 127 little more on the Beaford village hall and rather less on the grandiose plans of the Community Land Act and office blocks full of civil servants trying to introduce a wealth tax?
§ The Earl of ONSLOWMy Lords, in his reply, the noble Lord said that if Lord Clifford of Chudleigh could show that a promise had been made, he would record it. Would it not be much better that he honoured it?
§ Lord DONALDSON of KINGS-BRIDGEMy Lords, I did not say that I would record it; I said that I would acknowledge it.
§ The Earl of ONSLOWMy Lords, will he honour it?
§ Lord DONALDSON of KINGS-BRIDGEMy Lords, it is not for me to honour; it is for the Department under my Secretary of State. I shall bring it to her attention.
§ Lord BLYTONMy Lords, is the Minister aware that it is the Conservative Party which is keen to introduce income tax cuts for the higher regions of taxation, on the basis that it can be met by cutting public expenditure? Is it not ironic to see that Party asking for more public expenditure?
§ Lord DONALDSON of KINGS-BRIDGEMy Lords, if I had replied to the political question put to me, which did not seem to deserve a reply, I would have replied in exactly those terms.
§ Lord CLIFFORD of CHUDLEIGHMy Lords, would the noble Lord agree that the £42,600 allocation to Devon, with 400 parish halls, is really very small, and that if changes are to be made in what was the agreed system before, at least four years' notice should have been given so that organisations which are trying to raise 25 per cent. of the total cost do not get cut off suddenly? The notice that this was going to stop was given last autumn by the Minister. Is that fair on the organisations that have been working so hard for the local community?
§ Lord DONALDSON of KINGS-BRIDGEMy Lords, I do not think that 128 the noble Lord is raising a new point. I think that I have given the only answer I can, that whether or not one project or another should be given priority over others for support, rests with the Devon County Council.