§ 2.51 p.m.
§ Lord SANDYSMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government what arrangements are being made to safeguard the lives and wellbeing of patients in hospital and awaiting admission during the present work-to-rule.
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, I assume the noble Lord is referring to the recent industrial action taken by hospital electricians, and I know that he and Members of your Lordships' House will welcome their decision on Monday last to resume normal working. The responsibility, as your Lordships know, for making arrangements for the safety and wellbeing of patients lies with the Area Health Authorities to ensure that urgent cases are treated urgently.
§ Lord SANDYSMy Lords, I thank the noble Lord for that reply, and recognise that the work-to-rule has finished. I think that the question covers the whole field of contingency planning, and I should like to ask the noble Lord whether the Government are updating their red warning system.
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, I endeavoured on Monday to point out that my right honourable friend the Secretary of State had met representatives of the various groups of persons employed within the National Health Service with a view to discussing whether some sort of agreement can be reached to ensure that a situation of this kind does not reach the stage at which this particular situation arrived last week. It is hoped that, as a result of these discussions, it will be possible to work out some kind of arrangement whereby grievances are dealt with immediately.
Lord HAWKEMy Lords, is it not time that we considered whether there should be no right to strike in certain types of employment, in consequence of which they would get compensating pay, rights to arbitration, and so on? Time and time again throughout the nation we are being put at peril by small groups of people in vital industries, lives are threatened, the economy is threatened, and everything else is threatened. It would be perfectly simple to have terms of employment that did not provide a right to strike.
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, this raises very real problems on whether or not people who are employed have the right or not to withdraw their labour. I think it has been generally considered in our particular society that people have the right to do that. It is sometimes very unfortunate, and nobody would approve of some of the actions that are taken from time to time. Nevertheless, this raises a grave point. It is not one that has escaped my right honourable friend the Secretary of State, and we are hoping that in the future we shall be able, so far as the public service is concerned, to arrive at some sort of formula where it will be unnecessary for these work-to-rules and strikes to take place.
§ Baroness GAITSKELLMy Lords, may I ask the Minister whether it would be true to say that, while it would perhaps be very desirable in such a case to prohibit strikes, certainly it would not be very simple?
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLI would agree, my Lords.
§ Lord AVEBURYMy Lords, while acknowledging the assurance that any grievances would be dealt with immediately, does not the noble Lord think it is unrealistic to suppose that this will in every case avoid industrial action and withdrawal of labour? Bearing that in mind, should not the Secretary of State take the lead by calling the Area Health Authorities together to see whether a set of procedures could be devised for ensuring that urgent cases are dealt with in the urgent way he suggested, rather than to leave it to the Area Health Authorities to make up their minds independently on how to tackle each case as it comes along?
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, I am obliged for the contribution made by the noble Lord. What I was trying to say is that if my right honourable friend the Secretary of State, together with the various representatives, as I mentioned on Monday last, of the trade unions involved—the British Medical Association, the Royal College of Nursing, the Royal College of Midwives—get together and agree on a procedure, then that procedure would be passed on to the Whitley Council for general approval which would then apply, as I understand the situation, in each of the Area Health Authorities.
§ Baroness HYLTON-FOSTERMy Lords, can the noble Lord tell us whether he knows if any lives were lost during the go-slow?
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, my understanding is that there were no serious repercussions at all. Because of the fact that the electricians decided to resume normal working after seven days of restricted working, the position did not become a serious one at all.
§ Lord BLYTONMy Lords, is the Minister aware that often in trade union life when one negotiates one is so often fobbed off by the employers, or whatever committee controls your employment; that men get exasperated and may decide to take action? I think they did that in the House of Commons last night to draw attention to their situation on pensions, and nobody would have taken notice had they not gone on three hours' strike.
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, it may be that some noble Lords do not recognise that a large number of people—and it is true of many grades in the National Health Service—who, because they are in the public service, do not get the same financial rewards as those working in similar capacities in the private sector. If I may say so, this is part of the problem.
§ Lord HANKEYMy Lords, are the Government aware that a great number of people will wish the Government well in settling this dispute and hope that they will arrange a permanent procedure? May I take up the problem raised by the noble Lord, Lord Hawke, and ask the Government whether, arising out of this, it would be possible for them to examine some means of settling wage disputes more sensibly and preserve the industries in which these men work?
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, this is part of a very wide question of which, as I say, my right honourable friend is not unmindful, and apart from what I have said we hope to achieve a wage structure which is obviously a matter that has to be considered.
§ Lord CARR of HADLEYMy Lords, can the noble Lord give us any idea of the timing of the investigation to which he referred? Is he aware that there is a growing feeling in this country, quite apart from any Party affiliation, that the damage we suffer from strikes taken too often as a matter of first resort rather than last resort is something that it is harder to tolerate than it was in the past? In this particular field of health, where people's lives are at stake, it is literally becoming intolerable. I am not suggesting for one moment that one should take away the right to strike, but the kind of procedures the noble Lord is referred to are matters of great urgency, and I hope that the Government are at least putting some informal timetable to the parties concerned under which they will be expected to come forward with a procedure.
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, I know the mind of my right honourable friend the Secretary of State on this matter; this is something he wants to resolve, so far as the procedure is concerned, very quickly. I think the noble 309 Lord, who has had a great deal of experience in this field, will realise that when one is dealing with a number of different groups within the National Health Service, of necessity it will take a little time.