§ 3.1 p.m.
§ Lord HATCH of LUSBYMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government what policy they are adopting towards the proposal to establish an African military force with European support.
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, it is for the African Governments themselves to decide on the measures needed to guarantee their security. The attitude of the United Kingdom and of its European partners would have to be considered in the light of the circumstances in each case. In particular, as my right honourable friend the Prime Minister said in New York on 26th June:
We should take into account that the use of force brings few lasting solutions, and that the purpose of assistance would be to create the conditions for negotiation, not to replace it.
§ Lord HATCH of LUSBYMy Lords, while thanking my noble friend for that Answer, may I ask whether he is aware that the proposals put forward by the French in particular for a force organised and led by Europeans to maintain the status quo in Africa would endanger the lives of British citizens living in that Continent? Is he aware that, during the recent disastrous troubles in the Shaba Province of Zaire, it was the French citizens who were picked out for discriminatory treatment because of the intervention of French forces in the previous year? Would he agree that Africans have shown themselves to be unwilling to be the pawns in any form of cold war between East and West, and they are determined to settle their problems in their own way?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, I think my noble friend's final remark is wholly unexceptional; we should indeed very strongly hope that Africans, acting in unison and, where they request it, being helped by their friends in other parts of the world, particularly in Europe, would indeed take their own steps to guarantee their own security. The Heads of Government of the States forming the Organisation of African Unity will be meeting in Khartoum next month, in July, and no doubt the considerations which my noble friend has advanced will be considered very carefully by them. So far as we are concerned, the Prime Minister has stated very clearly our own attitude and that of our partners; we stand ready to assist in every way possible any initiative on which Africans as a whole are agreed. Once more we emphasise the important role which the OAU, the Organisation of African Unity, has in any such possible development.
§ Lord CARRINGTONMy Lords, if, as I think, part of the intention of the setting up of this African force was to rescue civilians in the kind of difficulties in which they were in Kolwezi, and if it does not happen, as appears likely, would the Government assure the House that they have contingency plans for the rescue of British civilians in other countries where circumstances might arise in a similar manner to those which arose in Kolwezi?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSI think I can give the assurance, my Lords, that there are contingency plans for known possibilities of hazard for British citizens in certain circumstances in certain countries. Naturally, some countries are more prone to disturbance than others, and our plans are more specific in those cases; but I think I can give a general assurance to the noble Lord. I would carry from that question the injunction that one should check on this constantly, as it is necessary to do.
§ Lord SHINWELLMy Lords, is my noble friend aware that the Africans have not been permitted to settle their problems in their own way because of Soviet intrusion—the sending of official advisers to the territory as well as the provision of modern equipment, weapons of war and the intrusion of Cuban forces—so making 311 it impossible to give any guarantee whatever that they can protect British subjects? In the circumstances, would it not be advisable for NATO, in association with the various European countries, to consider the proposition of entering into discussions with some of the African countries with a view to creating some kind of military force, or even a negotiating commission, to give us the assurance that British subjects operating in Africa, and the subjects of other countries, can be protected?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSI entirely agree with my noble friend, my Lords, and of course he will join me in emphasising the importance of our avoiding any reproach of neo-colonialism in this matter. Nevertheless, where there is a contingency and a clear hazard to British citizens and other citizens, we should be prepared to act. Indeed, that is what happened in Zaire, principally through the intervention of the French and Belgians; effectively, but only after great loss of life by Europeans. We made available certain assistance, which was not in the event necessary but it was there, ready to be provided. I accept from what my noble friend said the need that we should be ready to intervene in circumstances of hazard.
I shall not for the moment comment on the first part of his supplementary question, in which he spoke of Soviet intrusion and Cuban incursion, more than to say that it is a basic principle and a worthwhile one that no one should intervene in any other country except at the clear and genuine invitation of the Government of that country. Where that happens, of course we have no complaint, any more than others would have complaint if we were to respond to an invitation from any country in Africa or anywhere else that we should enter there to help them. It is a question of the invitation of the local Government; that is the touchstone whereby these appearances, these interventions, should be judged.
Lord PAGET of NORTHAMPTONMay I ask the Minister to say what he means by "Government" in this context, my Lords? Where, for instance, our own citizens are in bitter danger and the local Government do not have the 312 power to assist or provide security within their borders, are we to let them be slaughtered?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSNo, my Lords, we are not to let them be slaughtered. We need to be ready for all contingencies so far as we possibly can and to act whenever it is necessary, preferably with our friends in Europe and with our friends in Africa.
§ Lord DERWENTMy Lords, is it not a fact that the de facto Government of Rhodesia have asked for some time for our assistance, and have we not refused it?
§ Several noble Lords: Answer!
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSI could not quite hear the noble Lord's question, my Lords. Perhaps he would repeat it.
§ Lord DERWENTMy Lords, the noble Lord said that any country in Africa that asks for our help would get it. The de facto Government of Rhodesia have recently asked for our help. We have refused it. Is that not the case?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, I said, the Government of a country in Africa. The noble Lord said the "de facto" Government of a country in Africa.
§ Lord DAVIES of LEEKMy Lords, may I ask my noble friend a simple question? Is he aware that we are unable to quell the slaughter in Ireland? Apparently we have been asked to undertake the quelling of the slaughter and imperial neo-colonialist activities in various parts of the world, as it occurs to the Opposition. Is it not time we reassessed our role in world affairs as a non-imperial Power in the future?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, I think we are all agreed that we should do what is necessary to the fullest extent of our preparation and powers wherever British citizens are in hazard. This we are trying to do in Northern Ireland. This we are trying to do whenever these circumstances arise in any other part of the world. I have emphasised that we are better able to do it in certain 313 parts of the world, including Africa, in collaboration with our friends and allies in Europe and other parts of the world, including our friends in Africa.