CIVIL SERVICE PAY RESEARCH UNIT BOARD (Hansard, 15 June 1978)

§ Lord ORR-EWING
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

§ The LORD PRIVY SEAL (Lord Peart)
My Lords, as has already been announced, the independent members of the Civil Service Pay Research Unit Board, are my right honorable and noble friend Lord Shepherd, the chairman; Sir Derek Rayner, Professor Rodney Crossley, Mr. Leif Mills and the noble Baroness, Lady Pike. Other members of the Board are those nominated by the Civil Service National Whitley Council —Mr. Gordon Burrett, Mr. John Pestell, Mr. William Kendall and Mr. Percy Avery—and the Director of the Pay Research Unit, Mr. Vernon Morgan, ex officio. Only the independent members have voting rights on the Board.
My Lords, none of the independent members is an actuary. None of them is or was a career civil servant, though Sir Derek Rayner was seconded from Marks and Spencer between 1970 and 1973 to head the Ministry of Defence Procurement Executive, and Professor Crossley worked as an adviser to the Government on industrial relations for two periods during the 1960s. Of the other members, Mr. Burrett and Mr. Pestell are civil servants in my Department; Mr. Morgan is a civil servant appointed by the Prime Minister to be Director of the Pay Research Unit. Mr. Kendall and Mr. Avery were civil servants some 20 years ago and are now Civil Service union leaders.

§ Lord ORR-EWING
My Lords, while thanking the noble Lord for that full reply—and I am sure he will appreciate that it will need study to ascertain the degree of independence—I am sure that he would acknowledge that what is essential is that the independent members should be truly independent. I am not sure that is true of the man whom he mentioned as Director of the Pay Research Unit; but perhaps we can study that in greater detail.

§ Lord PEART
My Lords, Mr. Vernon Morgan, the official whom I mentioned, is the Director of the Unit. The chairman —and I thought the noble Lord was referring to the independent chairman of 506 the Board—is my noble friend Lord Shepherd.

§ Lord ORR-EWING
My Lords, I think that that underlines the fact that we need to study a list as complicated as that in greater detail. Is it not a fact that the actuarial calculations in working out pay and pensions are very complicated indeed? Is it wise in those circumstances to rely on the Government Actuary alone to serve both these boards? He is after all a Government servant. Would it not be wiser to ask the Institute of Actuaries to nominate somebody as an independent actuary so that in this complicated function one could have two people—for actuaries, like economists, seldom agree on any one matter?

§ Lord PEART
My Lords, I do not think so. I think that what we have followed is the right course.

Lord CAMPBELL of CROY
My Lords, we are grateful to the noble Lord for making this explanatory statement in reply to the Question of my noble friend, particularly in view of his responsibilities as Minister for the Civil Service besides being the Leader of the House. Can he tell us when the Pay Research Unit system will be revived, because it has been put into suspension by the Government for two or three years during their period of pay policy? Furthermore, is the noble Lord aware that it is important, from the point of view of public opinion, that the Unit should be able to make comparisons with occupations outside the Civil Service, taking into account many relevant factors, such as security of employment?

§ Lord PEART
My Lords, I believe that what we are trying to achieve is to have an independent body. It has worked very well, but we have made improvements, and an announcement has been made. I think it will do a very good job. Indeed, it has now been reactivated.

§ Lord ORR-EWING
My Lords, would the noble Lord consider that independence from Whitehall and from the Civil Service is of extreme importance in this issue? I think that he acknowledges that. Is it wise in the long run to nominate a man who was ministerial Head of the Civil Service? We know the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, to be a man of tremendous 507 integrity and objectivity; but, in the long run, will people outside think this is as wise an appointment as we think it to be?

§ Lord PEART
My Lords, I think they will. I have every confidence in a former Lord Privy Seal, knowing my noble friend Lord Shepherd. I think that all my colleagues on both sides of the House will accept that he would make a first-class chairman of this body.

§ Lord FERRIER
My Lords, would the noble Lord say whether the question of commuting pensions, a subject which has recently arisen, is a matter which would be investigated by this Board?

§ Lord PEART
My Lords, the main responsibility for making assessments of differences of pension benefits will remain with the independent Government Actuary and is not being transferred to the Board.

§ Lord PLANT
My Lords, would my noble friend the Leader of the House agree with me that the Civil Service National Whitley Council has full confidence in the independent members of the Board and that the necessity to obtain the confidence of the Civil Service in this new negotiating process is of the greatest possible value? I believe that all civil servants have got this confidence and I think—
Several noble Lords: Question!

§ Lord PLANT
My Lords, would my noble friend the Leader of the House agree that the Board has the full confidence of the Civil Service?

§ Lord PEART
My Lords, I accept that and think this is the right approach. Indeed, I was pressed by a Liberal Peer some time ago to get on with the job of reactivating, and that has now been done.