§ 2.55 p.m.
§ The Question was as follows:
176§ To ask Her Majesty's Government what progress has been made at the current negotiations with the Argentinian Government on the question of the Falkland Islands.
§ The MINISTER of STATE, FOREIGN and COMMONWEALTH OFFICE (Lord Goronwy-Roberts)My Lords, our negotiations with Argentina are still at an early stage. Following the first meeting of working groups in February, we are discussing with the Argentine Government arrangements for carrying forward the negotiating process.
Lord MORRISMy Lords, though I thank the noble Lord for his Answer, may I ask the noble Lord whether Her Majesty's Government would not agree that the Argentinians' somewhat petulant belligerence, their recent boarding of a trawler under the threat of traversing guns, their buzzing of a trawler in Berkeley Sound, their continued occupation of Southern Thule and President Videla's "hawkish" speech to all military units only last Sunday together indicate Argentinian frustration at Her Majesty's Government's most praiseworthy resolution and diplomatic determination over the question of the sovereign integrity of British possessions in the South-West Atlantic?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, there have indeed been a number of incidents, to which we have drawn the attention of the Argentine Government in no uncertain manner, and we shall continue to make the representations appropriate on every such occasion. As to the statements made by Argentine leaders to which the noble Lord referred, I find that on Malvinas Day, which they celebrated recently, President Videla referred to the successful outcome, as he hoped, of current negotiations; and Admiral Montes, I am glad to say—and I quote him—spoke of
a struggle for the recovery of the Falklands carried out in the framework of peaceful measures".This gives hope that the current negotiations based on the two working groups, political and economic, may possibly bear fruit.
Lord MORRISMy Lords, in the light of what has gone before, will the Minister 177 be good enough to explain Her Majesty's Government's seeming reluctance to translate words into actions and to put some money where their diplomatic mouth is, at least to reassure your Lordships' House that adequate defence arrangements have been made for the South-West Atlantic and that Her Majesty's Government will, as a matter of urgency, implement the two major recommendations of the admirable report of their colleague, the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, I think it was on 25th January of this year that I went into some detail about the steps we were taking to implement as many as possible of the recommendations of my noble friend Lord Shackleton. I could give a progress report on the various projects that I then mentioned. It would take some time, but possibly by Parliamentary means I might indicate how far we have got. As to the major projects, as I then explained, these did not appear to be practicable at that time, and I am afraid I cannot hold out any hope that they are more practicable today than they were then in terms of finance and for other reasons.
§ Lord AVEBURYMy Lords, is the Minister aware that when I took the deputation from the Argentine Human Rights Committee to see his colleague, Mr. Ted Rowlands, one of the points we made to him very strongly was that weapons should not be sold to the Argentinian regime in case, among other things, they might be used against the Falklands—and we were talking particularly about the proposed contract with Vosper Thorneycroft for the sale of frigates—and that the Minister then replied that there was no question of them using for hostile action against the Falkland Islands naval vessels that we might be in the course of selling them? Yet, immediately after that we opened our newspapers and we found that some of these islands had been occupied by Argentinian military forces for the last 18 months. Why was this not revealed to the British public, and what steps is the Minister going to take, if arms are to be sold to the Argentinian authorities, to prevent them being used in hostile action against the Falklands?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, I think I explained on a fairly recent occasion what had happened about the alleged occupation of Southern Thule, to which I presume the noble Lord is referring. It was in fact a scientific activity, and I have no evidence to disprove that. We have received assurances —indeed, detailed assurances—from the Argentine Government that this was so. We have made our protest in order to safeguard our sovereignty in that part of the Dependencies, as in every part of the Falkland Islands and its Dependencies. As for the selling of arms, there is no ban on the sale of arms to Argentina. As to frigates, we, like a number of other countries, have been invited to submit tenders. There is no definitive or finalised negotiation on this matter; we are one of a number of countries asked to tender, and I could not engage in a discussion of the details of such a question.
§ Baroness ELLESMy Lords, could the Minister elucidate further this question of the occupation of part of the Falkland Islands, which I understand is not alleged but is in fact true? Could the Minister say whether during the process of negotiation with the Argentine Government, any undertaking had been given by, or had been asked of, that Government to retain the status quo until such time as the negotiations are terminated, together with an undertaking not to take any action which might threaten either the sovereign territory of the Falkland Islands or the waters around it? May I ask a further question? If the Argentine Government continue to take the kind of action they are now taking by menacing ships within the Falkland territorial waters, and sending people to occupy part of their territory, what action do the Government intend to take?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, the action that we propose to take is the action we have already taken, and I think it has met with a measure of success. Very careful consideration must be given to rather attractive proposals of drastic action in situations of such delicacy and danger. As to the occupation, as the noble Baroness is entitled to call what happened in Southern Thule, this is not the first time that the Argentines have visited Southern Thule, withdrawn and come back. In 1954 and 1955, 179 when another Government were in power in this country, this happened. No doubt then as today we made the protests which asserted our sovereignty over that part of the Dependencies. It is not, strictly speaking, an occupation. It is scientific activity, as we are assured. But this brings me to the helpful suggestion made by the noble Baroness. Indeed, it would be a great help if a constructive arrangement for joint action in regard to scientific and other activities in these areas could be agreed to by the two Governments. I am able to tell the House that our chargé, who was over here for consultation recently, has been given new instructions on those lines.
§ Lord ELTONMy Lords, as the economic as well as the security aspects of this question are likely to be before us for some time, could the noble Lord undertake to see that copies of Lord Shackleton's report are made available in the Printed Paper Office? I understand that there were only six copies to start with and that no replenishments have been available since last year. Although there are three copies in the Library, as this is a subject of general interest, I think that that is not a sufficient supply.
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, I fully agree. It is a valuable report and I will see to it that there are adequate copies available in the Printed Paper office for the use of noble Lords.
§ Lord BYERSMy Lords, as this is a scientific expedition, will Her Majesty's Government see that they get the benefits of any results obtained?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, that would be the major purpose of such an operation. There is scope for international co-operation in research, in exploitation and in development of industries—oil, fish and other industries—in these waters, as the House will know. It is a major purpose of British diplomatic initiative and effort to come to an arrangement in the area between the three countries—the United Kingdom, the Argentine and the Falkland Islands—so that a proper scheme of co-operative exploitation of the resources of the area is agreed upon.
§ Lord CLIFFORD of CHUDLEIGHMy Lords, in view of the long-range implications of this Question, would it not be a good idea for the Government to reactivate the Parachute Brigade and the necessary long-range RAF squadrons?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, that is a question in itself of a somewhat long-range nature: but, as always, we shall bear in mind everything that the noble Lord suggests.
§ Lord GORE-BOOTHMy Lords, would it be helpful to suggest that a large captive audience will shortly be leaving Argentina and that the temptation to play this in high key in that country will diminish somewhat and will enable the Government to pursue a patient policy?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, no doubt that is so. I imagine that my noble friend is referring to the captive audience of those who are at the moment visiting this beautiful country for sporting purposes. I, myself, would hesitate to describe any Scot as part of a captive audience.
§ Lord BALLANTRAEMy Lords, so far as the Scots are concerned, may I assure the Minister that they would much prefer to stay in Argentina?