HL Deb 13 June 1978 vol 393 cc174-5

2.52 p.m.

Lord WILSON of LANGSIDE

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they regard it as—

  1. (a) constitutionally appropriate, or
  2. (b) in accordance with the rules governing the conduct of civil servants in relation to politically controversial matters,
for the permanent Heads of Departments to grant interviews to the Press for publication of views on Bills which are highly contentious and not yet approved by Parliament.

Lord PEART

My Lords, with the agreement of the appropriate Minister it is quite proper for senior officials to provide or explain the factual background to Government policy.

Lord WILSON of LANGSIDE

My Lords, while I thank the noble Lord for that Answer, am I to understand that the Secretary of State for Scotland gave permission to the Permanent Under-Secretary of State for Scotland to give the interview which was reported in the Scotsman newspaper on 1st June 1978?

Lord PEART

Yes, my Lords. The interview was agreed following Mr. Fraser's recent appointment as Permanent Under-Secretary. There is nothing wrong in this.

Lord WILSON of LANGSIDE

My Lords, may I then ask the noble Lord whether he thinks it was not contrary to the spirit, at least, of paragraph 9923 of Estacode? This interview proceeded upon the basis that the Scotland Bill would become law without acknowledgment of the fact that Parliament had still to pass it, Her Majesty had still to give her consent, and the people of Scotland had still to speak in the referendum. Does the noble Lord not concede that this was contrary to the spirit—not to a very grave degree, but to some degree—of paragraph 9923 of Estacode, to which I have referred and which is very clear?

Lord PEART

No, my Lords, I cannot accept that. I believe it was in accordance with the rules. We have certain rules which are in paragraphs 4123 to 4136 of Establishment Officers' Guide, a copy of which is in the Library. There was nothing improper about this.

Lord STRATHCLYDE

My Lords, is it not traditional and indeed absolutely proper that members of the Civil Service, no matter what the importance of the office they hold, should not state their views or comments on Government or on departmental affairs except through the mouths of their Ministers, and should the Permanent Under-Secretary of State for Scotland not be reminded of that fact?

Lord PEART

Yes, my Lords, I would agree with that. Of course Ministers must be responsible for policy, but there is no reason why on an occasion like this an official should not explain policy.

The Earl of LAUDERDALE

My Lords, is the noble Lord saying that an official can declare in advance what Parliament is going to decide? Because that is what happened in this case.

Lord PEART

No, my Lords, I am not saying that at all, and the noble Earl knows that.

The Earl of LAUDERDALE

Is the noble Lord aware that that is what happened in this case?