§ 11.10 a.m.
§ Lord ORR-EWINGMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government what steps they are taking to ensure 1062 that a small number of unrepresentative union members in Scotland do not continue to hold four aero-engines not belonging to them and in respect of which a writ has been issued.
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, with the issue of an export licence on 20th July the next steps are a matter for the parties directly concerned—namely, the Chilean Government and Rolls-Royce—and for the ordinary processes of the law.
§ Lord ORR-EWINGMy Lords, is it not true that Rolls-Royce supply military and civil engines to some 70 overseas countries, and is not Britain's reputation for honouring commercial contracts gravely damaged when a few Left-Wing trade unionists at East Kilbride are allowed, over a period of four years, to prevent goods from being delivered to their rightful owners? Can the Government now say what steps they are going to take? They really cannot opt out of this. They are the people who uphold law and order in Britain. What steps are they now going to take?
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, the Government have not opted out: they have granted an export licence. I would agree with the noble Lord that there has been a long period of bitter debate on this subject, but the whole of that bitter debate has been constrained within the framework of the rule of law, and the processes of law are now about to play their part. A writ was granted by the Hamilton Sheriff Court some months ago, to establish the ownership of the engines; Her Majesty's Government have issued an export licence; and I believe that within the rule of law a satisfactory solution will be found.
§ Lord TREFGARNEMy Lords, would the noble Lord not agree that the issue of an export licence in this matter is rather like legislating against sin—wholly ineffective? Why do the Government not offer to lend or sell engines of their own to the Chileans to replace these that they are unable to deliver?
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, it is only a few days since the export licence was granted. Let us see how things develop.
§ Lord MURRAY of GRAVESENDMy Lords, would my noble friend not agree that, without supporting or condoning any illegal actions in this matter, many people, including such reputable organisations as Amnesty International, are very concerned about what is going on in Chile, particularly the fact that there are still 2,500 missing political prisoners; and will the House take note of this?
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, as I said in answer to an earlier question, the world is full of regimés of which we do not approve. May I say that I believe that the trade union movement as a whole support the rule of law as firmly as does this House.
§ The Earl of LAUDERDALEMy Lords, the noble Lord said that the export licence had been given a few days ago, or quite recently. Since this matter has been going on for a long time, could he tell us when the export licence was given and why it was not given a long time ago?
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, as I said a few moments ago, it was given on 20th July this year. The period of delay is about eight or nine months, but the law's delays are well known.
§ Baroness EMMET of AMBERLEYMy Lords, may I suggest to the noble Lord that to have to go to court in order to get one's property back if one is trading with this country will not do any good to our reputation as a trading nation?
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, the noble Baroness has reinforced what was said by the noble Lord, Lord Orr-Ewing.
§ Lord HALEMy Lords, could my noble friend say, as a representative of a Left-Wing Government, whether he accepts the use of "Left-Wing" as a pejorative term and a term of condemnation in this House, and whether the Government of Chile is regarded as Left-Wing?
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, this is a very theological point. I am still discovering in political terms what is "Left" and what is "Right". In some 1064 areas I think that I myself am far to the Left and in others far to the Right.
§ The Earl of LAUDERDALEMy Lords, could the noble Lord explain why it was not until 20th July that this export licence was given? This matter has been going on for ages.
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, the noble Earl obviously has never been involved in legal procedures. Eight or nine months is a short time in a delicate matter like this.
§ Lord ORR-EWINGMy Lords, would the noble Lord not agree that this is unrepresentative of the trade union movement and that the sooner pressure can be brought on these extreme Left-Wingers to release these goods, the better for the reputation of Britain, of the trade union movement, and of Rolls-Royce? Would the Government think, if they are not able to disentangle this issue during the Recess, of taking up the suggestion from my noble friend Lord Trefgarne and sending some of the many Avon engines they have in stock until this difficulty has been overcome? Four years is a long time to wait for servicing of an engine and return of goods.
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, the Chilean Government obviously wants back the engines it has purchased. I agree with the noble Lord about the trade union movement, which I believe as a whole supports the rule of law in this country; and the rule of law will be obeyed.