REDUCTION IN WORKING HOURS (Hansard, 16 February 1978)

§ Lord SHINWELL
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

Lord WALLACE of COSLANY
My Lords, Her Majesty's Government keep under review all possibilities for reducing unemployment, including the possibility of reducing working hours without increasing industrial costs, and regularly keep in touch with the TUC and CBI on these matters.

§ Lord SHINWELL
My Lords, if that is so and the Government have been dealing with this matter, can we ascertain for how long they have been dealing with it and whether they are likely to come to a conclusion?

Lord WALLACE of COSLANY
My Lords, the Government are currently considering these matters and discussing them. From time to time they bring in measures, such as the temporary ones already announced. Those temporary measures will be extended to 1979. There is a possibility of further measures being introduced very shortly.

§ Lord SHINWELL
My Lords, that is not an answer to my Question. I am asking whether the Government will consider this specific proposal of a 1506 reduction in the hours of labour. Is my noble friend aware that the high labour costs, which would undoubtedly arise as a result of a reduction in the hours of labour, could be more than covered by savings on social security because of the number of jobs that would be made available? Would that be taken into account? Would my noble friend be good enough to answer my Question and not pass the buck to someone else—I know not who?

Lord WALLACE of COSLANY
My Lords, it is not my intention to pass the buck when answering such an experienced, well-versed and active Member of this House. Of course, there is an EEC recommendation on hours of work and holidays. The terms of our adoption of the EEC recommendation on the principle of the 40-hour week and four weeks annual paid holiday to be achieved by 31st December 1978 make it clear that its achievement would be through collective bargaining and would be subject to the requirements of the counter-inflation policy. In point of fact, collective bargaining is the key factor here. It is far better for collective bargaining to take place rather than for the Government to come out with a dictation of policy which would only cause further difficulty.

§ Earl CATHCART
My Lords, bearing in mind the answers which the Minister has given to the Question put by the noble Lord, Lord Shinwell, will the Government include in their discussions with the CBI and the TUC the idea that overtime allocated to workers already in work should be limited?—so that that spare workload can be allocated to those who are out of work, thus reducing unemployment and giving a greater degree of self-respect to those unfortunate citizens who are out of work.

Lord WALLACE of COSLANY
My Lords, to reduce overtime, and to take similar measures which have been advanced, would be a very desirable general objective. However, we must take into account the particular circumstances of industries and groups of workers. In any case, a reduction can best be obtained through voluntary negotiation.

§ Lord LEE of NEWTON
My Lords, although I wholeheartedly support my 1507 noble friend Lord Shinwell on this matter, would it not be better if the Government were to convene conferences of all the manufacturing nations, so that we can reach agreement on a far shorter working week, a retiring age of about 60 and on the allocation of pensions? Surely that would be better than asking any one nation to do it by itself?

Lord WALLACE of COSLANY
My Lords, yes, that is so. Of course, the EEC have already considered this and are still considering it. Also, as I know from my experience, the Council of Europe is considering these very important matters. The question of unemployment is not the sole responsibility of Britain. Unfortunately, unemployment is rife throughout Europe and is a common problem with which we all have to deal.

§ Lord PARGITER
My Lords, is my noble friend aware that because of the peculiarities of our system of employment many employers find it better and cheaper to keep their existing staff on overtime rather than to employ more people?

Lord WALLACE of COSLANY
My Lords, that is so. Of course, there is also the problem in some industries of a possible shortage of skilled workers who may be doing a very important job. As noble Lords know, it is not easy to obtain skilled workers. Therefore, all these factors must be taken into account. Unfortunately, it is not as easy as just saying that we should cut overtime.

Earl FERRERS
My Lords, is the real answer to the problem of unemployment the stimulation of new business by encouraging investment? Would that not best be taken into account by reducing taxation?

Lord WALLACE of COSLANY
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Earl because, in point of fact, that is the Government's policy.

Earl FERRERS
My Lords, does the Minister think that that policy has been working?

§ Lord SUDELEY
My Lords, the Minister referred to the cutting of overtime. Is he aware that it is often thought 1508 that less work is done during ordinary working hours so that more work is left to do on overtime, for which more money is paid?

Lord WALLACE of COSLANY
My Lords, I cannot answer that. Probably the noble Lord has more practical experience of dodging work in order to provide overtime than I have.

§ Lord MONSON
My Lords, would the Minister not agree that a reduction in employers' National Insurance contributions, particularly for part-time workers, would help reduce the unemployment figures?

Lord WALLACE of COSLANY
My Lords, that is hardly a question involved in this Answer. It is a matter for the Treasury.