§ 3.13 p.m.
§ Lord ORR-EWINGMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the first Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government what extra warships and Royal Naval auxiliaries are to be laid down as part of the 3 per cent. extra defence expenditure in 1979 on Britain's contribution to NATO.
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, our plans for ordering warships and auxiliaries are announced at the beginning of each year in that year's Statement on the Defence Estimates.
§ Lord ORR-EWINGMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that we are heavily subsidising the building of ships for Poland and India? Does it not make greater sense to lay down warships in our shipyards, where they are badly needed, and do as the Italians and the French Navies do?—they build them for their own navies, but if other people want to buy them then they can give more prompt delivery than we are able to give. Would this not only provide work in our shipyards but add to the strength of our Navy, and therefore our contribution to NATO?
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, I appreciate the potential benefits of such a scheme but there are difficulties—as the noble Lord as, I believe, a former Civil Lord will remember—both practical and budgetary in implementing it. Nevertheless, the Ministry of Defence have considered it from time to time in the past and are keeping the possibility under review.
§ Lord GLADWYNMy Lords, when will the Government be able to tell us how they are to spend the additional 3 per cent. on the Defence Budget, as we understand they are going to do, and how this additional expenditure is to be distributed between the three Services?
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, as I said, the plans are announced at the beginning of each year. That is to say, the plans for 1978–79 will be announced this year, and, for your Lordships' information, a White Paper is expected next Monday. The plans for 1979 will be advised at about the same period in 1979 as we are advising the 1978 figures this year. However, no doubt the White Paper will be debated, and perhaps indications can be given then.
§ Baroness ELLESMy Lords, will the Minister give the exact figure on which the 3 per cent, extra expenditure is to be made?
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, not with any confidence that I should be right, but it is based in absolute terms on a base year.
§ Lord BOYD-CARPENTERMy Lords, is not a very strong claimant for some share of the 3 per cent, the provision of additional naval craft for the protection of our crucially important oil rigs, and indeed our fisheries, and for the production of naval vessels superior in speed, armament and sea-keeping qualities to these rather pathetic little Islander gunboats which are all that are available for the purpose at the moment?
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, with your Lordships' permission, I should like to answer two questions. The noble Baroness did ask a question. It is of course based on the year in which we undertook to make the 3 per cent. increase 1510 —I think it was in March of last year. May I just leave it at that. I should not like to get too involved in it because I am not absolutely certain. As regards the question of oil rig protection ships, that is under close review. It is under consideration, and a replacement class of ships for the TON class is being considered within this context.
§ Lord SHINWELLMy Lords, would my noble friend give special attention to naval auxiliaries, and when new Merchant Navy vessels are being built so to construct them as to be able to use them in the event of hostilities? Would he ask his right honourable friend the Minister of Defence to give this matter careful consideration?
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMYes, my Lords, I will bring that very sensible point to the notice of my right honourable friend.
Lord PAGET of NORTHAMPTONMy Lords, is the Minister aware that when it is a question of strikes and oil rigs, they are within easy range of our land-based aircraft, which would be infinitely more potent?
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, we have debated this subject, and indeed the Nimrod has an important rôle to play in surveillance of the whole area.
§ Lord HANKEYMy Lords, before we leave Lord Orr-Ewing's Question, may I ask whether the Government would consider that it would greatly help the steel industry if we were to build more ships, and that really it would be better to get the ships than to pay for such enormous losses?
§ Lord ORR-EWINGMy Lords, would the noble Lord bear in mind that, if there are administrative and budgetary difficulties, these have been overcome in Italy and in France, and were overcome by Lord Carrington when he was Minister of Defence? Perhaps the noble Lord could send somebody to discover how this was done, and ask Lord Carrington how he achieved it?
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, there was a difference. The noble Lord, Lord Carrington, ordered ships off the shelf, so to speak, that were acceptable to the Royal Navy. There is no absolute 1511 guarantee that ships built for (what shall I say?) selling to any prospective buyer would suit the purposes of the Royal Navy. That is the problem.
§ Baroness ELLESMy Lords, in view of the Government's concern and everybody else's concern regarding the violation of human rights—and in particular I was thinking of the contract with El Salvador—would the Government seriously consider Lord Orr-Ewing's proposal and not build ships for Vietnam?
§ Lord WIGGMy Lords, is the Minister aware that since the end of the war we have spent no less than £74,000 million on defence? If the result is that it seems that all we have are a few pathetic little gunboats, as described by an ex-Conservative Minister, is not that an indictment of the Conservative defence policy and the defence policy of the country as a whole, which is based upon the 1957 White Paper, and for which we are still pouring out countless millions of pounds and getting nothing in return?
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, that is an interesting analysis of our political dilemma. Perhaps the noble Lord could give the House the benefit of his views during the debate on the White Paper.
§ Lord DUNCAN-SANDYSMy Lords, could I through you, the Minister, suggest that the noble Lord, Lord Wigg, might try to live in the present and not always on every occasion harp back to my Defence White Paper of 1957?
§ Lord WIGGMy Lords, is the Minister aware that in the 1957 White Paper a Conservative Government renounced conscription and that, once that happened, we were left with a defence bill almost 60 per cent, of which had to go on pay, allowances and non-effective services, so that now we can neither afford to pay the troops and the other members of the Armed Forces nor provide them with equipment?