APPROPRIATION (No. 4) (NORTHERN IRELAND) ORDER 1978

HL Deb 14 December 1978 vol 397 cc817-26

4.14 p.m.

Lord MELCHETT rose to move, That the draft Appropriation (No. 4) (Northern Ireland) Order 1978, laid before the House on 28th November, be approved. The noble Lord said: My Lords, the order authorises the issue out of the Northern Ireland Consolidated Fund of the financial requirements of Northern Ireland Departments as set out in the Autumn Supplementary Estimates. The order will provide a sum of £129 million, and will bring the total Estimates provision to date for 1978/79 to £1,461 million, an increase of £143 million over the total for 1977/78. The first Schedule to the order contains details of the services for which extra provision is needed, and further information is contained in the Autumn Supplementary Estimates volume which is available in the Library.

The largest amount in the order is for industrial support, where £43 million will be used mainly to help new companies and support existing firms. Of the £21 million needed for the Department of Education, almost half will go to meet the cost of the April 1978 pay award to teachers. Expenditure by the Health and Social Services Boards has increased, and an additional £14 million is needed for pay increases and for additional services. An increase of £12 million is needed to meet the cost of higher social security benefit rates, and a further £11 million for the funding of schemes administered by the Department of Manpower Services. £11 million is being sought for the Northern Ireland milk industry. I have tried very briefly to summarise the most significant sums covered by the order, but I will, of course, do my best to answer any questions noble Lords may have. My Lords, I beg to move.

Moved, That the draft Appropriation (No. 4) (Northern Ireland) Order 1978, laid before the House on 28th November, be approved.—(Lord Melchett.)

Lord SIMON of GLAISDALE

My Lords, I have a question to ask only about the second Schedule which deals with the repeal of provisions which are alleged to be spent. The normal way that your Lordships' House—indeed Parliament—deals with provisions which are thought to be spent is to include them in a Statute Law Repeals Bill which is sent then to the Joint Select Committee on Consolidation Bills, which examines the matter carefully. This is not mere formality. I remember on one occasion that that committee found a whole group of financial provisions which were not really spent at all, and indeed the Bill was withdrawn. When it was reintroduced in the next Session those financial provisions were not included in the Schedule. I presume from the fact that these provisions are in Schedule 2 that they have not been included in this Session's Statute Law Repeals Bill. Perhaps the noble Lord will confirm that. Perhaps he will also tell your Lordships why they are dealt with in this way, instead of in the way that, so far as I know, has obtained for very many years; namely, sending them to the Joint Consolidation Committee. That committee deals not only with Acts of Parliament, but also with measures and orders.

4.18 p.m.

Lord BELSTEAD

My Lords, no doubt the noble Lord speaking for the Government will reply in a few moments to the question of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Simon of Glaisdale. I believe that a similar point was raised in another place when the order came before that House. The order clearly is necessary for the economy of Northern Ireland and I, too, have some questions that I wish to raise arising from the order.

Class II includes sums to be granted for industrial assistance; the noble Lord, Lord Melchett, mentioned £43 million in this respect. Also under Class II we find a grant being sought for employment services. I wish to take the opportunity to ask the Government for the latest unemployment figures for Northern Ireland, together with the number of new jobs filled in the public and private sectors separately for that period of this year for which they are available.

I recognise that much has been done during this year to attract more industry to Northern Ireland, but if the noble Lord could also give the figure for additional jobs provided by the Job Creation Programme—I ask for that statistic as well, it if is possible—then I expect that the overall picture will continue to show great reliance being placed still upon the public sector and upon job creation in order to prevent unemployment rising. On 18th October, in the Belfast Telegraph, the chairman of the Economic Council in Northern Ireland, Sir Charles Carter, was reported as saying that Northern Ireland must be very close to the ceiling in investment grants; and he went on to identify the danger that Government can spend money for excellent purposes which, however, do not directly affect the Province's economic success. The ever present problem, I conclude, is how to transfer at least some employment from some traditional industries in Northern Ireland to new industries, and how those industries can be encouraged to flourish and, in time, to expand.

My Lords, if I may turn to a different topic, when this order was debated recently in another place almost all the speeches which were made referred to the continuing high costs of energy in Northern Ireland. A sum for that is also to be appropriated within Class II. Without repeating the views which were put forward in another place, suffice it to say that although in 1977, following the Shepherd Report, the Government provided massive economic aid for the Northern Ireland Electricity Service, none the less electricity is more expensive in Northern Ireland for the private consumer than it is in the rest of the United Kingdom; gas is the most expensive form of energy of all in the Province; and solid fuel suffers from the high transport costs.

In September of this year the Economic Council made a number of suggestions for energy policy. Among them were the possibility of some form of integration, possibly, between the Northern Ireland Electricity Service and the Central Electricity Generating Board in Great Britain; and the possibility of electricity links with the Republic being re-established. Of course, they were originally established when my noble friend Lord O'Neill of the Maine met Mr. Lemass back in the 1960s. I think that was when the electricity link was established, although since, of course, it has suffered from terrorist damage and the link is no longer there. The Economic Council also raised the possibility of a natural gas pipeline to be laid from Great Britain. I am now asking which of these or any other options appear the most practical to the Government; because unless further thought and action can be brought to bear on this very difficult problem, high energy costs will remain a burden to people in Northern Ireland and could again become a considerable burden to industry and to commerce.

Finally, money for education is to be granted under Class VIII of this order, with, as the noble Lord mentioned, a considerable sum to be allocated for school building. I understand that the noble Lord, Lord Melchett, with his responsibility for education in Northern Ireland, has this year set up working parties on education to allow public discussion to come through to ministerial level from people who are involved or interested in the service. I hope that when the noble Lord receives recommendations from these working parties he will keep an open mind to any suggestions that comprehensive schools, when or as they are established in Northern Ireland, can develop their own particular specialities. I must say that I believe that in a few years' time people will look with astonishment at the rigidity of the 1976 Education Act, which prevents parents in England and Wales from choosing a school on any ground of ability or aptitude. In Northern Ireland there are large country areas where the size of any reorganised schools really would make it extremely difficult for every subject to be provided together with the best opportunities for the most able and for remedial teaching.

What I am saying is that I believe that to allow some parents some choice, on grounds of ability and aptitude, between one reorganised school and another is the way in which secondary education is going to develop in the foreseeable future. But the question on education which I should like to ask (and I apologise to the noble Lord for not being able to give him notice of it) is this: How are the quotas decided which the noble Lord set last year and which, under what is known as the revised transfer procedure, the noble Lord is, I understand, setting again this year for secondary schools in Northern Ireland? The noble Lord, Lord Melchett, will be aware that the Secretary of State for Education and Science has an Education Bill which had its Second Reading in another place last week. That Bill, which deals only with England and Wales, proposes to set what are known as "planned admission limits" from year to year for schools in England and Wales.

Of course, on this side of the House we accept that the fall in the school population which is already beginning to happen must enable local education authorities to reduce maximum sizes of both schools and classes. It would be intolerable if this were not so. But if planned admissions and the noble Lords' quotas are going to follow the fall in the school population inexorably year by year, thereby removing from parents any increased opportunity which reduction in school numbers might provide for more freedom of choice, that process, I think, would take away from parents the opportunity to have as much choice as is reasonably practicable. If the Government policy of planned admission limits (or, in Northern Ireland, of quotas) is going to be as rigid as that, then I must warn the noble Lord that on this side we would oppose such a policy. With those few questions, I shall certainly support the passage of the order.

Lord HYLTON

My Lords, my noble friend Lord Belstead mentioned energy policy in Northern Ireland. I understand that exploration for coal reserves is being planned. I wonder whether the noble Lord is able yet to report any progress on that front.

4.27 p.m.

Lord MELCHETT

My Lords, again I am grateful to those noble Lords who have spoken of their support for the order. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Simon of Glaisdale, asked about the appeals which are listed in Schedule 2 of the order. The orders to be repealed are those made either under the 1974 Constitution Act or as a measure of the Northern Ireland Assembly. As such, I am advised that they fall to be repealed by an order under the 1974 Act and not by a Bill which will appear as part of the United Kingdom Statute Book. They are, in other words, part of the separate Northern Ireland——

Lord SIMON of GLAISDALE

My Lords, the Joint Select Committee have repeatedly dealt with Northern Irish legislation in Statute Law Repeals Bills. It is two years since I left the Committee but my recollection is fairly firm on the point.

Lord MELCHETT

My Lords, I would not pretend to be an expert in this field. I should prefer to take advice and write to the noble and learned Lord. As I understand it, those measures which are part of the Northern Ireland Statute Book, the separate book for Northern Ireland, do not go through the same Joint Consolidation Committee procedure as those which are part of the United Kingdom Statute Book. Some legislation which covers Northern Ireland is part of the United Kingdom Statute Book so that some of it would go to the Committee to which the noble and learned Lord referred. But if I may, rather than get it wrong, I should prefer to take expert advice and write to the noble and learned Lord either con firming what I have said or correcting the impression I have given.

Lord SIMON of GLAISDALE

My Lords, I am much obliged.

Lord MELCHETT

My Lords, turning to the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Belstead, he, first, asked about statistics on employment. I am glad to say that although the position is still extremely grim by comparison with Great Britain there has been some slight improvement. The number of persons registered as unemployed in Northern Ireland on 9th November was 57,040, not counting school leavers. There were 4,177 unemployed school-leavers, a decrease of 1,431 on the previous month. That gives a total of 61,217 unemployed which is about 11.2 per cent. of employees in Northern Ireland.

I do not have with me the figures on the effect of job creation measures although the noble Lord may be interested to know that the slight fall in unemployment is accounted for by a growth in the service sector, where there has been a long-term growth in employment. In other sectors, particularly manufacturing and construction, there has continued to be a fall in employment. I shall get the particular figures that the noble Lord asked about and write to him.

Noble Lords also asked about the energy policy. It is too soon to say anything about explorations for coal. These explorations have only just been announced and are not even at an early stage as yet but are simply something which will be going ahead. On energy policy generally, as the noble Lord, Lord Belstead, will know, an urgent review is now taking place within Government. This is an extremely complicated field for Northern Ireland, where the problem is not only the very high cost of the existing sources of energy, but where there is also, if anything, a substantial over-supply of energy. Whatever policy is decided upon, it is going to have some ill-effects, not only as regards existing supplies but also in substantial costs to the United Kingdom economy. So the Government have been looking at this very complicated field for some time. However, my right honourable friend the Secretary of State has set up an urgent review. That is expected to report in the new year and he has said he will make the results of that known as soon as possible in the new year. I do not think there is anything very informative that I can say in advance of that review being received.

The noble Lord, Lord Belstead, also asked about education. First of all, the noble Lord touched on three working parties currently sitting to look at different aspects of education in Northern Ireland. One, under Professor Astin, is looking at school management. That is separate from the issue of secondary reorganisation. It has taken as a background the Taylor Report, which covered England and Wales. The Astin Committee in Northern Ireland goes considerably wider and covers both voluntary and controlled schools, primary and secondary. That committee is sitting and is expected to report some time next year. It is a small committee and obviously its report will be subject to the widest possible consultation before the Government comes to any view about the recommendations that should be made.

The other two committees which arsitting under the chairmanship of Dr Dickson and Dr. Benn are looking at particular aspects of the planning for secondary reorganisation. They therefore have as their brief the Government's decision to eliminate selection at 11-plus in Northern Ireland. They are looking at particular aspects of the financing of voluntary schools and other matters. Dr. Dickson's committee is looking into questions such as the salary of teachers, the position of teachers in a reorganised structure and the position of preparatory departments, boarding schools and a host of other matters which are pertinent.

Again, both committees are expected to report next year. Maybe some recommendations from Dr. Dickson's committee will be available early next year. Those will be subject to widespread consultation, and both those committees are made up of people nominated by various organisations in Northern Ireland concerned with education.

On quotas, there is some link with this and what I have been saying about committees. The interim transfer procedure which has taken the place of the 11-plus in Northern Ireland and which is still a selective system, was actually recommended by an independent committee which, again, was made up of individuals nominated by all the main interests in education in Northern Ireland, including the grammar schools, teachers' unions, and so on. That working party recommended this new alternative transfer arrangement which has been used. The key point in the working party's recommendations, which was made with only one dissenting voice—from a member of a teachers' union—was that there should be a quota system set covering secondary schools in Northern Ireland; that this should be done with the agreement of grammar schools; and that the quotas should be set on the basis that the secondary, intermediate and grammar schools should continue under the arrangements to get the same proportion of pupils as they had under the previous 11-plus arrangements, where that proportion had in effect been guaranteed and where it could not be guaranteed under the new alternative transfer arrangements.

This was recommended by a working party representing all sectors of education. The recommendation was made on the basis that this would be agreed by the grammar schools which, as I have said, were represented on the working party that made the recommendation. It was accepted by all concerned that this was the best way forward. The quotas have subsequently come under some criticism. A valid criticism is that last year we did not get them quite right. Rather a higher proportion of pupils went to grammar schools last year than would have been the case under the previous system. That is where they went wrong last year, simply because we did not have the experience of running this scheme before. We hope to learn from that experience and to get the quotas right on the basis recommended by the working party for the coming school year.

I certainly accept what the noble Lord says, if one looks ahead: that this should not be a completely rigid operation. Of course, it is not intended to be. The transfer arrangement is in fact called the "interim transfer arrangement" and at the moment is only guaranteed to operate for next year. We are currently consulting with everybody to see what might follow it and whether it might be an adaptation of this. In the reasonably near future we hope there will be a completely nonselective system and the transfer arrangements will be quite different from those which are needed where there are selective secondary schools.

Lord BELSTEAD

My Lords, may I ask this: prompted by what the noble and learned Lord, Lord Simon, was saying about the seriousness of Northern Ireland legislation, would I be right in thinking, when the noble Lord, Lord Melchett, says there will be a completely non-selective system of secondary education in Northern Ireland, that this will be the subject of legislation?

Lord MELCHETT

My Lords, this is one of the points which one of the working parties has a particular remit to look at, so I would not want to pre-empt their report, as I think the noble Lord has already asked me not to do, by expressing an opinion on whether legislation will definitely be needed. I think it is an open secret that some legislative changes will be necessary, but this is something that Doctor Dickson's working party will be looking at particularly and, hopefully, it will be reporting on it in the coming year.