§ Lord CARR of HADLEYMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government what progress has been made in promoting "industrial democracy in a strong and organic form" within the undertakings of British Aerospace and in particular what proposals to this end were contained in the further report on the subject which the Secretary of State for Industry requested from the Board of British Aerospace by June 1978.
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, discussions have been continuing within British Aerospace, following the report that was laid before the House on 6th December 1977, in the light of other developments such as the publication of the Government's White Paper on industrial democracy. The chairman reported orally on developments to my right honourable friend the Minister of State for Industry in June. British Aerospace will make their next written report in August, when the chairmen of nationalised industries have been asked to put forward proposals on democracy.
§ Lord CARR of HADLEYMy Lords, we are grateful to the noble Lord for the progress report. Would he agree that progress is evidently proving rather slow and difficult?—which is perhaps not surprising. Would he assure the House that so far as participation and consultation are concerned—and I would particularly stress that I am not referring to collective bargaining but to participative 1290 consultation—all employees of British Aerospace will be properly included in these democratic rights?
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, I understand the intention behind the noble Lord's question. This is in fact a question which is exclusively for the management of British Aerospace. However, the matter is one of such importance that quite clearly it must receive careful consideration so that all employees of this organisation are considered.
§ Lord CARR of HADLEYMy Lords, I do not want to press the noble Lord on the detail, but I should like to ask him one question on what he has just said because it does concern me. He said that it is entirely a matter for British Aerospace; but surely if Parliament passes a law about "strong and organic industrial democracy" the Government and Parliament must accept some responsibility for seeing that what Parliament has passed is implemented in the proper way?
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, yes; as the noble Lord almost certainly knows, there has been a writ served by two staff associations on British Aerospace, and that is very relevant to the point made by the noble Lord.
§ The Earl of LAUDERDALEMy Lords, the noble Lord said just now that an oral report had been made in June. Could he tell us the substance of that oral report?
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMYes, my Lords. Lord Beswick, in his oral report, outlined developments that had taken place since the report that was laid before the House in December. He explained that since various discussions were still in train a report with greater meaning could be produced in August. That report will, of course, be laid before the House.
§ Lord HARMAR-NICHOLLSMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that, while I am in no way being critical of the noble Lord himself, the words that he used are quite meaningless? Is it not a fact that this phrase, "industrial democracy in a strong and organic form", is just a propaganda sop to certain sections, in the hope that it will help in an Election? Is that not quite clear?
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, it was the subject of a rather prolonged discussion in the watches of the night: it is a phrase I would not myself have drafted, but there it is.
§ The Earl of KINNOULLMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that in his original Answer he said that the written report would be made in August. As we are already in August, which August is he referring to?
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, there are 31 days: it could be any one of them!
§ Lord LEATHERLANDMy Lords, will my noble friend take account of the fact that the Opposition are trying to steal our Election address on the question of industrial democracy?