§ 3.7 p.m.
§ Lord BOYD-CARPENTERMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government what in their view is now the justification for continuing to apply sanctions to Rhodesia.
§ The MINISTER of STATE, FOREIGN and COMMONWEALTH OFFICE, (Lord Goronwy-Roberts)My Lords, sanctions must remain in force until there is a settlement clearly acceptable to the people of Rhodesia as a whole. This is not yet the case, but all our efforts are directed towards this end.
§ Lord BOYD-CARPENTERMy Lords now that there is in Rhodesia a multiracial Government and an understanding that free elections will be held, are we not getting very near the point where, instead of seeking to damage the economy of that country, we should be considering what we can do to help build it up in the interests of all races there?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, at first sound, I do not think that I could disagree with what the noble Lord has said—and particularly the last sentence. This is precisely what we are trying to do. We are saying that great advances have been made internally in Rhodesia in the last few months, but it is still essential that we draw into the final settlement the very substantial elements outside Rhodesia who claim that they have a very strong voice in the final settlement.
§ Lord BOYD-CARPENTERMy Lords, while recognising that, does not the noble 1328 Lord recognise that while sanctions continue the whole force of the United Nations—at any rate of those members of it who abide by their obligations—is being exercised to continue the damage to the economy of the country? What I asked the noble Lord—and with respect, he did not answer—was this: Are we not near the time when we ought to reverse that process?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, I hope that we are near the time, given the processes which I have tried to define; namely, a truly multilateral agreement by all concerned. That is the answer to the noble Lord. I hope that we are near the time. So far as the role of the United Nations is concerned, we are founder and subscribing members to that body, the international authority. I wonder whether the noble Lord would care to reflect on the implications of the suggestion in his Question that this country, alone in the Community, alone in the Commonwealth, and alone in the United Nations, should break ranks on sanctions.
§ Lord BOYD-CARPENTERMy Lords, the noble Lord has seen fit to read into my Question what plainly is not there. Is he aware that this country still carries considerable influence in the United Nations and that, if Her Majesty's Government took the view that the time had now arrived to reverse the process, it would be for Her Majesty's Government, as the Power claiming authority in Rhodesia, to move, in the Security Council or the Assembly as the case may be, for the withdrawal of sanctions? I can assure the noble Lord that there is no suggestion in my Question—and I do not know from where he got it—that we should act contrary to our obligations. My suggestion is that we should exercise our responsibilities as the protecting Power.
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, I am delighted to hear the noble Lord expunging the implications of the Question. I accept entirely that we should live up to our obligations and I have tried to define them. As to the influence that this country asserts in international relations—and the noble Lord who has considerable experience, and distinguished 1329 experience, in these matters testifies to that fact—I hope that when the time comes this country will indeed take the right initiative at the right time in the right place.
§ Baroness GAITSKELLMy Lords, may I ask the Minister this: Would it be true to say that if we suggested this at this time in the United Nations it would absolutely wreck the present initiatives that have been taken by our Foreign Secretary and the people with him?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, the noble Baroness of course speaks from recent experience as a member of a delegation to the United Nations. She knows what the position is there. There is very grave danger indeed that, by acting prematurely in advance of a proper settlement, we might indeed wreck the prospect of any settlement.
Lord PAGET of NORTHAMPTONMy Lords, is not the noble Lord very well aware that our influence at the United Nations is very small indeed as compared with that of the Russians and their Third World clients who control that institution? Since at this point sanctions are operating to favour the interests of the Russians and their friends, and to injure other interests, it is very unlikely that the Russians or the United Nations, which they control, would withdraw sanctions. Is the noble Lord further aware that, 12 years ago, I resigned the Labour Whip on this issue precisely because I saw that this was going to happen, and I said so at the time?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSI disagree, my Lords. Our influence is considerable and I believe it is growing. If it were minimal, as my noble friend suggests, it would be our intensified duty to maximise it, especially in relation to any totalitarian attempt to disturb a peaceful settlement. Secondly, as to what the Russians or anybody else will do, surely we should cling to what is right and, as the noble Lord reminded us, live up to our own obligations. As to my noble friend's reference to his surrender of the Labour Whip, I notice he has, however precariously and temporarily, resumed that Whip.