HL Deb 19 April 1978 vol 390 cc1155-7

2.54 p.m.

Lord CAMPBELL of CROY

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government how many civil servants are employed in or by the Scottish Office and how many of these are members of the Prison Service or staff of mental or other hospitals, including Carstairs.

The MINISTER of STATE, SCOTTISH OFFICE

(Lord Kirkhill) My Lords, on 1st March, 10,474 staff were in post, of whom 2,536 were employed in the Prison Service and 351 in the State Hospital, Carstairs.

Lord CAMPBELL of CROY

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for that reply, because different figures have been bandied about and the situation can be confused by the inclusion of prison warders and nurses. Their numbers are related to the amount of crime in Scotland and the success of the police. As regards the others—civil servants normally recognised as such—will the Government make a re-assessment of the effects of the Scotland Bill? The manpower memorandum in that Bill forecasts a net increase of 750 civil servants in Scotland, which many of us regard as excessive as the Scottish Office would have less to do.

Lord KIRKHILL

My Lords, the Scottish Office itself, as presently constituted, will of course perform many fewer functions after devolution, as the noble Lord will readily understand; but the devolved Assembly civil service structure w ill require additional staff because there is the question of new function, block grant and that sort of thing. It should not be denied that there will be a loss of economy of scale, because there will be a certain split in the Scottish Office divisions—the Finance Division is an example. I think the new legislation is going to make heavier demands upon civil servants themselves, because they are going to have to service a Legislature which will no doubt set up Standing Committees and so on. I think that, by the very nature of the political beast which the Assembly undoubtedly will be, there will be a demand for increased provision of services in Scotland and I suppose that that in itself will lead to the need for some additional civil servants.

Lord GLENKINGLAS

My Lords, will the Minister bear in mind that all Scottish civil servants are good but that some are better than others? If it happens that we have an Assembly, will the Scottish Office take great care to put some of their best people to look after it, rather than use the opportunity to get rid of some of the less good?

Lord KIRKHILL

My Lords, we must allow the Civil Service its own job opportunity.

Lord INGLEWOOD

My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord whether, following the comment that the civil servants in Scotland might increase by about 750 following devolution, he can give an assurance that the total of civil servants in England will go down by the same number?

Lord KIRKHILL

Mercifully, my Lords, my remit stops short at the Border!

Lord MACKIE of BENSHIE

My Lords, can the Minister tell us what increase there was in the number of local government civil servants following the reorganisation of local government which was carried out some four years ago?

Lord KIRKHILL

Not without notice, my Lords; but I have the figures in my office and I will write to the noble Lord.