§ 2.48 p.m.
The Earl of SELKIRKMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether the overseas allowance is cut off from families in Germany when their battalion is posted away for duty in Northern Ireland.
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMNo, my Lords. If a soldier's family remains in Germany, he continues to receive what we term the family element of the allowance. This amounts to about 70 per cent. of the full allowance.
The Earl of SELKIRKMy Lords, I wonder whether the noble Lord has consulted any lady accustomed to running a house about how much saving is to be made in having one less mouth to feed when all the overheads still must be met, 451 and whether, in fact, a competent man in the house does not, if anything, save overheads?
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, this is a matter that arises in the domestic experience of many of us. However, the point is that a decision must be reached as to what is done under these circumstances in view of the terms of the military salary. The decision that has been reached is that the Serviceman receives 70 per cent. of the allowance, he consuming apparently 30 per cent. of it.
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, that is another question, but I presume that they receive an overseas allowance because the cost of living in Belize must be different from the cost of living here.
§ > Lord CLIFFORD of CHUDLEIGHMy Lords, does the noble Lord have any information about the percentage of the families left behind in Germany, when the unit goes to Northern Ireland, that have to resort to social security?
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, I cannot answer that. It must vary from month to month and from unit to unit. However, I will inquire into the matter and let the noble Lord know.
§ Lord CARRINGTONMy Lords, the noble Lord has explained the situation and why the 70 per cent. figure pertains. In view of the very real fear in this country about the pay of the Forces—and in particular about the pay of those in Northern Ireland—would the Government be prepared to review this matter?
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, during Question Time, I could not commit the Government to such an action. But the noble Lord's standing in this area as a former Secretary of State must weigh heavily with my right honourable friend the Secretary of State. However, I should like to make one point. The operational situation in Northern Ireland has been recognised by extending field conditions to all who serve there. That means that single personnel do not pay anything 452 for their food and accommodation, and married personnel who are accompanied by their families have their married-quarter charges reduced by the single accommodation charge—that is, reduced by 40p a day for ranks up to and including corporal; and areeither fed free by their units or receive 50p per day food allowance in lieu. In addition, Northern Ireland pay of 50p a day is given to all who serve over 14 days in that part of the world. So while the soldier in Northern Ireland may have his family element reduced by 30 per cent., he does receive free food and £1 a day in addition because of service in Northern Ireland.
The Earl of SELKIRKMy Lords, can the noble Lord say, when an investigation is made, whether a 30 per cent. reduction in the number of families living in Germany in fact inflicts some kind of reduction in standards of living or some hardship?
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, I simply cannot answer a question like that. As I said, it must inflict more hardship on some individuals and units than on others, and on the date in question the state of the balance of currency and prices in the two countries must be taken into account. Unfortunately, one must have precision in this matter, and 70 per cent. remains with the soldier while he does a stint in Northern Ireland while his family remains in Germany.
§ Lord BYERSMy Lords, does not that answer give great weight to the proposal of the noble Lord, Lord Carrington, that the matter should be reviewed? It does not seem to us to be very satisfactory at all.
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, as the House will know, the report of the Armed Forces Pay Review Board has, in fact, been handed in and I hope that your Lordships will have an early view of it. This is part of the whole re-assessment of the remuneration of the Armed Forces.
§ Lord HAILSHAM of SAINT MARYLEBONEMy Lords, will the Minister bear in mind that none of us wants to make a Party issue of this? Feeling has been addressed to the noble Lord from all parts of the House. Will he not remember that a General Election is coming, and he might be wise to pay attention to what we say?
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, I think that that is a stupid threat. Basically, the threat is not from the Conservative Party but from outside powers. What the Forces are paid must depend upon the actual need for the Armed Forces, which I am certain your Lordships' House agrees is paramount.
§ Lord WIGGMy Lords, is it not a fact that the cost of the overseas allowance for troops in Germany, or the allowance paid to families who are on the strength of troops in Germany, is borne as a charge against the offset agreement which is recovered from the German Government? Therefore, is not the answer that the Minister has given rather a typical Civil Service answer?—because they are a little afraid that if they give away on this, they may be giving something away in Belize or elsewhere?
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, this particular factor must have been considered by the Review Board. I would hope that your Lordships will wait until we see the Government's reaction to the report of the Review Board. As I said, the report should be coming before your Lordships soon.