HL Deb 10 April 1978 vol 390 cc317-20

2.40 p.m.

Lord HAWKE

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they are satisfied that in the event of an oil tanker becoming a wreck on United Kingdom shores they have the powers immediately to see that the cargo is burnt without delay involved in arguing about necessity or compensation; and if not, whether they will take steps to get such powers.

Baroness STEDMAN

My Lords, Section 12 of the Prevention of Oil Pollution Act 1971 empowers the Secretary of State to give directions to those in charge of a stricken tanker as to the action they should or should not take, or to take appropriate action himself. But an undertaking was given to Parliament during the passage of the relevant Bill that the interests likely to be affected by any proposed intervention measures would be consulted.

Lord HAWKE

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness for her reply, which will be satisfactory to many people in Britain who value our coastline. But would she not agree that the sting in the tail, that various interests have to be consulted before decisive action can be taken, might lead to the bumbling and fumbling that went on over the "Amoco Cadiz"?

Baroness STEDMAN

My Lords, I do not think there is any danger of that. The 1969 Intervention Convention relates to measures taken on the High Seas to protect coastal and related interests and normally requires consultation with the vessel's flag State, and with persons likely to be affected by the measures; but it recognises that in cases of exceptional urgency this may not be possible. We believe this to be the right approach to casualties both within and outside our territorial waters.

Lord HALE

My Lords, does the noble Baroness not realise that the words she used, if I heard them correctly, seemed to imply that one has to consult people in all parts of the world while a major disaster is taking place? So far as the Channel is concerned, with its special risks, its special geographical problem and the fact that two nations or more may be in danger at once with different coastlines and variations of winds, is it not absolutely essential that one should know the position and that there should be international powers to take emergency measures, even of the most drastic kind if necessary, without international argument and discussion?

Baroness STEDMAN

My Lords, in answer to the supplementary question, I said that in cases of exceptional urgency it may not be possible to have the consultations. Where there are cases of exceptional urgency, our Secretary of State has the power to take action.

Lord CAMPBELL of CROY

My Lords, will the Government consult—if they have not already done so—Sir Eric Drake, the former chairman of BP? He has made it clear that in his opinion the burning of the oil in such circumstances should be carried out as soon as possible by a boarding party, and that this is far more effective than attempts at bombing.

Baroness STEDMAN

My Lords, I am aware of the view of the former chairman of BP, but there are other things that we have to consider. It depends whether the tanker has gone aground and if there is a possibility of towing it off and perhaps salvaging the cargo. it is not something on which we can advise Governments to take an immediate off-the-cuff decision as to what they should do. There are bound to be a few hours' delay, at any rate. In so far as the "Amoco Cadiz" was concerned, we made our help available immediately, but we had to wait until the consultations had taken place before it was used. If there were any difficulties off our own shores in our own territorial waters, I am assured by my officials that we could have experts there within hours to give advice to the Secretary of State as to what action he should take.

Lord HAILSHAM of SAINT MARYLEBONE

My Lords, are the Government satisfied about the compensation provisions of the law in this respect? Some of these tankers are owned by one-ship companies.

Are the Government satisfied that such companies will be in a position to pay the enormous sums for which they will probably become liable in the event of a disaster? Have the Government properly explored the availability of funds to pay for these disasters?

Baroness STEDMAN

My Lords, in so far as compensation is concerned, any person who incurs expense or suffers damage as a result of action ordered by our Secretary of State is entitled to compensation if that action can be proved to have been unnecessary and not the kind of action that ought to have been taken in the circumstances.

Lord SHINWELL

My Lords, is my noble friend aware that most of the accidents that have occurred were due to faulty navigation, not on the part of United Kingdom ships' navigating officers but particularly those associated with ships registered in Liberia and similar countries? Is the important consideration not a matter of compensation or consultation for this and that, but rather of ensuring that ships which are likely to be proceeding through the English Channel should have navigating officers of the best quality?

Baroness STEDMAN

My Lords, I am assured that there is a real skill in the navigating of these very large tankers and other ships within the Strait of Dover and our Channel waters. I am also assured that the voluntary measures, of using lanes for the sea traffic, are being increasingly and better used than they were. It is not something on which at this time the Government think they ought to introduce compulsion; but our Coastguard Service have the right to draw it to the attention of anyone straying from the lane and ask them to get back into it, and usually in their own interests they do so.

Lord HAILSHAM of SAINT MARYLEBONE

My Lords, I am sorry to ask another question about this. I do not think the noble Baroness fully appreciated the purport of my last question. Could she have it studied and write to me, and perhaps put the answer in the Library?

Baroness STEDMAN

On the question of compensation, certainly, my Lords.

Lord PAGET of NORTHAMPTON

My Lords, would the noble Baroness consider the desirability of requiring tankers to take on pilots upon entering the Channel?

Baroness STEDMAN

My Lords, that is a point I will put to my right honourable friend.

Lord HAWKE

My Lords, will Her Majesty's Government realise that the immediate destruction of the cargo is of vital importance in many cases, and that the risk can be covered by the owners of the ship and the cargo for a minute fraction on the insurance?

Baroness STEDMAN

Yes, my Lords, that is one of the problems. It is one of the points we shall have to look at and are continually looking at.

Lord MORRIS

My Lords, have Her Majesty's Government received any satisfactory reason from the French Government as to why they turned down our immediate offer of every possible assistance, to the great distress of the people of Brittany?

Baroness STEDMAN

My Lords, I think this question really arises out of a Question which has been put down on the Order Paper for me to answer tomorrow. I can say that we had a frigate and six other ships operating within the waters and helping out with the French. It was for the French Government, as the coastal State involved, to have consultations and to decide what they want from other countries.