§ 2.38 p.m.
§ Lord BOURNEMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether before signing Annex 2 of the Decision of the Council of Ministers of the EEC on 20th September last (referred to by Lord Harris of Greenwich on 3rd May, cols. 978 and 979) they considered making special arrangements for the inhabitants of Gibraltar to vote in direct elections to the European Parliament.
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, the Government did not overlook the position of Gibraltar in the arrangements for direct elections to the European Parliament, but considered that it would be inappropriate for Gibraltar, which is 1279 not directly represented at Westminster or in the present Assembly, to be included in these arrangements.
§ Lord BOURNEMy Lords, while thanking the Minister for that reply, may I ask him, first, why not Gibraltarians, who are very interested in this transaction? And, secondly, what consultations took place between the Government of Gibraltar and Her Majesty's Government? Is he aware that I have just received a letter from Gibraltar which says:
My Gibraltar passport reads, 'Holder is defined as a United Kingdom national for Community purposes'."?Have the Gibraltarians been told that that excludes them from voting?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, I think the true answer to that is that Gibraltar Ministers are able at all times—and communication is in no way difficult—to make their views known through the Governor to the British Government, who invariably take the Colony's interests into account in all relevant matters discussed within the Community context. I would add that we have quite recently, I believe last Monday, received a communication from the Chief Minister of Gibraltar. No reply has yet been sent, but our reply will be very carefully considered before it is despatched.
§ Lord BOURNEMy Lords, is the Minister convinced that the Gibraltarians have been fairly treated in this matter?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSYes, completely, my Lords. One could go into some detail on this. I am sure that Gibraltar Ministers and indeed Gibraltarians generally would agree with me that there has always been the most complete rapport between Her Majesty's Government and them, and I am glad to give that assurance to the noble Lord.
§ The Earl of ONSLOWMy Lords, if passports say that the Gibraltarians should be treated for passport purposes as Community citizens, may I ask the noble Lord to say what that means if it does not allow them to have a vote in the potential European Parliament?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, I do not think that it follows from the passport position that they should be represented in this way in the European Parliament. The practicalities are important. Gibraltar is excluded from the application of key aspects of the Community—for instance, the CAP, which is very much a key aspect nowadays, and the common external tariff. As a practical matter, Gibraltar is a tiny, though very important, community of some 20,000 people which can neither have an EMP—and I am told that that stands for "European Member of Parliament"—of its own, nor fit logically into any United Kingdom region or constituency. Furthermore, there is the broad analogy of the Isle of Man and the Channel Islands. While I do not press the analogy too far, it is a fact that neither of those territories, if I may so describe them, figures in representation at Strasbourg. There is, therefore, a certain analogy with the position of Gibraltar.
The Earl of HALSBURYMy Lords, is the noble Lord, Lord Goronwy-Roberts, aware that he appears to have left unanswered a question put by my noble friend Lord Bourne? My noble friend asked, if I heard him right, whether the inhabitants of Gibraltar knew that they had been disfranchised. The Minister's reply was a bit of waffle about what was going on between the British and Gibraltarian Governments and it had nothing to do with the question. May I press him to answer the question?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, I have already answered. There is very full communication between the two Governments. I cannot see that there is any reason to think that either the Government or the people of Gibraltar were unaccountably unaware of the position. This has been a continuing position since the Access Treaties were negotiated and it would surprise me greatly if people on either side were unaccountably unaware of the position. We have proceeded, I believe, on broad analogies and on practicalities, with everybody knowing what the position is. As I have just told the House and as I once more remind your Lordships, we have received a communication from the Chief Minister which we are now considering and shall reply to in due course.
The Earl of HALSBURYMy Lords, with the greatest respect to the noble Lord, that is just more waffle. Is it to be supposed that the British nation knows what is going on between Her Majesty's Government and some other Government unless it is informed? My noble friend's question was whether the Gibraltarian population knew that it had been disfranchised. The reply by the noble Lord, to the effect that he had no reason to suppose that they did not, is not an answer to my noble friend's question.
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, I respectfully disagree. It may well be that people are not aware of exchanges between Governments. That is not to say that what is generally known through the normal media—and surely this is a situation which was not secret from anyone—is not generally known to both Governments and populations.
§ Lord BOURNEMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that this is all a big surprise to the Gibraltarians themselves?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, that remains to be seen. I have said that we have received a communication from the Chief Minister. We are considering it with all due respect and care and shall be replying to it in due course.