§ Lord SEGALMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government how many language laboratories have been established by the British Council abroad; and how many more are likely to be established, and where and when.
§ The MINISTER of STATE, FOREIGN and COMMONWEALTH OFFICE (Lord Goronwy-Roberts)My Lords, 79 laboratories comprising 36 British Council installations, 25 loans and 18 presentations, were established in 40 countries between 1963 and 1977. Five more are likely to be established this year; one in Iran, one in Brazil and three in Saudi Arabia. Further installations are under consideration for British Council centres in Hong Kong, Singapore, Indonesia, Venezuela, Chile, Oman, Syria, Jordan, Qatar and the United Arab Emirates.
§ Lord SEGALMy Lords, I thank my noble friend for that very satisfactory reply. In view of the recent enormous increase in university fees for foreign students, may I ask him whether the Government would urge the British Council to provide additional courses in advanced English studies for those students who are now denied the chance of coming to study in this country?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, I have always thought—I think this view is very widely shared—that as much as possible of language teaching in English should be done in the country of origin. The British Council is an independent organisation but its Royal Charter 1276 includes among its main purposes the promotion and a wider knowledge of the English language overseas. I think it follows that, given the resources of the British Council, as much as possible should be done overseas; a certain amount must be done in this country, but I am in very general sympathy with what my noble friend said.
§ Lord MERRIVALEMy Lords, bearing in mind the very fine and well-deserved reception that was given to Prince Charles in March by the Government and people of the Ivory Coast when he went there on an official three-day visit, may I ask the Minister to say when it is proposed to set up a British Council English language teaching centre there? I understand there have been moves to that effect. Because among the five new centres to be set up there is no mention of the Ivory Coast, does the noble Lord not feel that it should be possible to expedite matters, bearing in mind that the centre in Senegal, which was opened in 1968 by Her Majesty the Queen, has been most successful?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, that is most certainly a point which I think the British Council will be glad to consider should there be any addition to the fairly long list that I read to the House of countries where they intend to move immediately. I am sure that they will take full note of what the noble Lord said.
§ Lord DAVIES of LEEKMy Lords, may I take this opportunity of—
§ Several noble Lords: Order! Question!
§ Lord DAVIES of LEEKI thought that was a question, my Lords. I begin with the words, "May I take this opportunity" May I, therefore, take this opportunity of asking my noble friend—
§ Several noble Lords: Hear, hear!
§ Lord DAVIES of LEEKMy Lords, I was in subjunctive mood. I do not know what else noble Lords opposite want of me. May I ask my noble friend whether he is aware that on both sides of both Houses many of us appreciate, and have seen at work, the work of the British Council, despite the denigration of it by people who do not know? Is he aware that 1277 we would like the British Council to know that we are aware of the work for Britain that has been, and is being, done by many of those who devotedly carry out the Council's work?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, I am glad to take the opportunity once more of expressing what I think is the general feeling of the House; namely, that the British Council does an excellent job of work, perhaps particularly in the teaching of English, which is, after all—this may he accepted from me as a Welsh man—not prescriptively the language of the English but the international language of the world. As to the subjunctive mood of my noble friend, however subjunctive he may be in form, he is always indicative or even imperative.
§ Lord BROCKWAYMy Lords, in view of the increased charges for overseas students at universities in this country, is it not very desirable, as my noble friend Lord Segal suggested, that there should be teaching in higher English at the various establishments abroad of the British Council?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, the British Council is well aware of the need for the phasing of teaching of the English language. I think that probably the priority—I am sure my noble friend will agree—is to teach the fundamentals of English so that those who proceed from that to what is called higher English have a proper basis, idiomatically and otherwise, on which to proceed. It would perhaps be a mistake to jump too far ahead before the fundamentals have been mastered, hut I think the point made by my noble friend is well taken by the British Council.
§ Lord MAELORMy Lords, would my noble friend agree that it would be a good thing to teach the language of Heaven, which is the Welsh language?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSI am inclined to think that the language of Heaven should remain an exclusive property, my Lords.
§ Baroness EMMET of AMBERLEYMy Lords, is the Minister aware that it has just come through on the tape that 1278 the Chinese have stopped banning Shakespeare, which I am sure will be a great help in this matter?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, I am sure it will be of very great help indeed, culturally and diplomatically.
§ Lord SEGALMy Lords, could the British Council also be urged to emphasise the importance of providing courses in commercial English, which might also help to promote commercial relations with this country?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, I am sure they have that in mind, if not in commission. I think it is fair to emphasise what I said in reply to my noble friend, Lord Brockway; that the basic purpose is to teach English properly and adequately so that it is an instrument of communication and understanding for the largest possible number of people in the host countries, on which movement forward to specialised teaching, like commercial teaching and indeed higher teaching, can be properly based. I think the British Council will read with great interest the report in Hansard of these exchanges.