§ 2.38 p.m.
§ Baroness MACLEOD of BORVEMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper, and, in doing so, to ask the leave of the House to alter the first figure in the Question, which should be £1 rather than £1.50.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government how many people are employed in giving widows with one child a £1.50 weekly child allowance and how many are employed in deducting £1 from the same widows' pension.
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, I am much obliged to the noble Baroness. The number of staff employed in giving widows the extra child benefit of £1 was about 40. No extra staff were used to reduce the payments of widowed mother's allowance because, in general, this was done automatically by computer programme.
§ Baroness MACLEOD of BORVEMy Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Wells-Pestell, for his Answer, which covers the Question, but would he not agree that to pay anybody to give £1 to a widow and take the same £1 away is a waste of Government money, to put it at its very lowest?
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, it is sometimes cheaper and easier to apply a measure to a whole group and then, in those cases where sums have to be deducted to do so. I would remind the noble Baroness of the level of the allowances and pensions in respect of the group about which she has asked this Question.
§ Baroness MACLEOD of BORVEMy Lords, I agree with the noble Lord in his implication that widows get an allowance of £7.45, but is he not aware that they have to pay income tax on that, which leaves them with roughly £5 out of the £7.45?
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, let us look at the figures which are involved. A widow, if she is over 50 years old at the time of her husband's death, receives £15.30 per week and £7.45 for each child, including the first. I appreciate that the amount is not as great if the husband's death occurs when the wife is between 40 and 50, but one has to look at the level of the pension.
§ Baroness MACLEOD of BORVEMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that a widow of that age does not receive a pension anyway?
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, she does if she has children.
§ Baroness MACLEOD of BORVEMy Lords, that is for the child only, not for herself.
Baroness WARD of NORTH TYNESIDEMy Lords, will the noble Lord not congratulate my noble friend onlooking into these matters, in view of the fact that it is most important that justice should be done and that the amount of money used in doing administrative work should not be increased? I am sure that the noble Lord will agree that it would be very nice if, on these kinds of occasion, he would thank the noble Baroness for looking into the matter, even if the Answer is not satisfactory.
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, it would be very nice if, on occasion, noble Lords on the same side of the House as the noble Baroness congratulated the Government on the increase in the amount and level of pensions.