HL Deb 04 May 1977 vol 382 cc985-8
Baroness SEEAR

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government why only one woman was appointed to the three committees established by the DES in December 1976 and February 1977; namely, the New Development Unit for Further Education, the National Consultative Group for Training and Further Education, and the Working Group on the Management of Higher Education in the Maintained Sector.

Baroness STEDMAN

My Lords, my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Education and Science shares the concern of the noble Baroness that there should be no discrimination against women in public life. The membership of the three committees was however very largely determined by nominations from outside bodies and the need to select people representative of particular interests. I am sure that the educational and other interests concerned will take note of the views of the noble Baroness in making nominations in future.

Baroness SEEAR

My Lords, I thank the Minister for that Answer, but I am bound to say that I find it totally unsatisfactory. Surely, she must agree that it cannot be true that women cannot be found in more adequate numbers to start these Committees. I regard that as no reply at all.

Baroness STEDMAN

My Lords, when organisations are asked to make nominations or suggestions, we cannot stipulate that they must do so by sex. We expect those organisations to nominate the people who, in their opinion, are best suited to do the job for which they are being nominated. I regret, as much as does the noble Baroness, that some of these organisations did not nominate women. We can only hope that the organisations in question will take note of this and will look a little harder in the future.

Lord HAILSHAM of SAINT MARYLEBONE

But, my Lords, are not some of these appointments Government appointments?

Baroness STEDMAN

My Lords, the Further Education Curriculum Review and Development Unit was kept very small for reasons of operational efficiency. There are two senior members of the Department who serve on the board and the Unit's director is a full-time member of the board. As regards the Training and Further Education. Consultative Committee, again, we asked for nominations. The Consultative Group there comprises a chairman and 14 members. My right honourable friend approved the appointment of the chairman and nominated as education members the seven persons who were recommended to her by the education organisations consulted. Again, I regret that none of them was a woman. However, we were a little more fortunate with the Working Group on the Management of Higher Education to which we did at leas get one woman appointed.

Lord BYERS

My Lords, when these nominations come in, would it not be a good idea for the Department or the Minister to send them back for second thoughts if there is this preponderance of men over women?

Baroness STEDMAN

My Lords, that is very difficult. If we are asking organisations to submit nominations of people who, in their opinion, are suitable to do the job which we want them to do, it is not for us to specifiy that they must be women, though, like the noble Baroness, Lady Seear, I regret that not more women were nominated.

Lord HAILSHAM of SAINT MARYLEBONE

My Lords, is it not the case that organisations can be asked to put forward more than one name from which the Minister can select?

Baroness STEDMAN

My Lords, in some cases organisations give us more than one name, but we still do not necessarily get a woman.

Baroness GAITSKELL

My Lords, while I, for once, deplore the answer given by my noble friend, may I ask her why a distinguished woman like the noble Baroness, Lady Seear, has not been put on to any of these committees?

Baroness STEDMAN

Presumably, my Lords, because none of the organisations which we were asked to make recommendations recommended the noble Baroness.

Lord BELSTEAD

My Lords, so far as the third of these Working Groups is concerned, is it not the case that the Department of Education and Science nominated eight members?

Baroness STEDMAN

As regards the Working Group on the Management of Higher Education, yes, my Lords: but most of the members were nominated or recommended to us by educational organisations which we had consulted about the nominations. These were bodies such as educational authorities, trade union organisations, the higher education bodies and so on.

Baroness BACON

My Lords, is my noble friend aware that there are some women who, while they do not want discrimination against women, nevertheless do not want women appointed to anything just because they are women?

Baroness STEDMAN

My Lords, I could not agree more with my noble friend.

Lord WYNNE-JONES

My Lords, is there not a case here for employing the principle employed in other fields of education; that is, of positive discrimination in favour of those who are not getting the right treatment?

Baroness STEDMAN

My Lords, I thought that we were against sex discrimination and that we appointed people on their ability to do the job.