FOOTBALL HOOLIGANISM (Hansard, 9 March 1977)

Lord CAMPBELL of CROY
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

§ The MINISTER of STATE, HOME OFFICE (Lord Harris of Greenwich)
My Lords, the arrangements for curbing hooliganism connected with football matches are mainly a matter for the police in consultation with clubs, supporters' organisations and transport undertakings. To review the measures being taken, my right honourable friend the Home Secretary, with his colleagues in other Departments, has met representatives of the football organisations and chief officers of police in England and Wales, and proposes to hold a further meeting soon to review progress. My right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Scotland has appointed a Working Group to consider how football hooliganism in Scotland might be reduced. The Government have also made proposals in the Criminal Law Bill for substantial increases in the maximum fines and amounts of compensation which offenders may be ordered by magistrates' courts to pay on conviction of offences associated with hooliganism.

Lord CAMPBELL of CROY
My Lords, I should like to thank the noble Lord for giving us that up-to-date information. Are the Government not worried about the riot in Southampton which happened less than two weeks ago when it was reported that shop windows were broken, cars overturned and about 40 people arrested? Will the noble Lord say whether any special precautionary measures were taken at the replay of the football match which took place last night, even though it was in Manchester and the home team won?

§ Lord HARRIS of GREENWICH
My Lords, on the latter point, that is a matter affecting the operational deployment of the Greater Manchester police. That is a matter for the chief constable and not the Government. On the earlier point, it is quite right that there have been disturbances at Southampton and a number of other cities when football matches have taken place. That is why we have come to the conclusion that it is right that the maximum penalties in the Criminal Law Bill, which is now before the House, should be increased substantially.

§ Lord AVEBURY
My Lords, will the noble Lord say what inquiries have been made about the association between 1030 excessive consumption of alcohol and offences of violence committed against persons or property in association with football matches? What has been the result of the discussions with the Football Association and others to prevent such ready access to alcoholic drink as exists at football grounds and in connection with the transport arrangements made for taking football fans to the matches?

§ Lord HARRIS of GREENWICH
My Lords, there is a Working Group on Crowd Behaviour so far as England and Wales are concerned, chaired by my right honourable friend the Minister for Sport and Recreation, which has given guidance on the control of drink within football grounds. So far as the consumption of drink outside football grounds is concerned, the noble Lord is quite right, there is on some occasions a relationship between violent behaviour and over-consumption of alcohol. This is a matter for a large number of organisations, including the supporters clubs, when they hire trains. Certainly it is a matter of which British Rail and a number of other statutory undertakers are well aware in regard to their responsibilities.

§ Lord LEE of NEWTON
My Lords, we have had some pretty horrific figures on unpaid fines. Can my noble friend give us the proportion of the fines now being inflicted on soccer hooligans that are paid?

§ Lord HARRIS of GREENWICH
Not without notice, my Lords.

§ The Earl of KIMBERLEY
My Lords, can the Government possibly consider whether in addition to fining hooligans, there should be a black list of all hooligans who have been convicted for causing affrays at football matches, and whether they should be barred from attending any match for five years?

§ Lord HARRIS of GREENWICH
My Lords, I am not quite sure how it is possible to enforce that, so far as the Government are concerned. It is a matter for individual football clubs a number of whom, I believe, have made some attempts in that direction. But there are a number of penalties which are available for football hooligans who misbehave. As I have indicated, we are hoping to take powers 1031 in the Criminal Law Bill, which is now before Parliament, substantially to increase the maximum penalties. There are also, of course, junior attendance centres available for children aged between 10 and 16. Some 60 of these already exist in a number of major centres of population, and it is the Government's intention to make a modest extension of the system of junior attendance centres which will, to some extent, deal with some of the people involved in these very regrettable disturbances.

§ Lord CLIFFORD of CHUDLEIGH
My Lords, have Her Majesty's Government made any inquiries as to how many of these young people would never become hooligans if there was a reintroduction of National Service?

§ Lord HARRIS of GREENWICH
My Lords, with great respect to the noble Lord, I do not really see how we can possibly make an inquiry of that kind which would give us any particularly helpful information.

§ Lord MAELOR
My Lords, after what we witnessed at Cardiff last Saturday, would the Government consider having all the games played in Wales and keeping them within the bounds of civilisation?

§ Lord HARRIS of GREENWICH
My Lords, I can understand my noble friend's view, particularly in view of the wholly deplorable result.

Lord CAMPBELL of CROY
My Lords, although this is more difficult, have the Government any plans for trying to prevent rampages by British supporters at matches abroad which have, unfortunately and regrettably, given us a bad name on occasions?

§ Lord HARRIS of GREENWICH
My Lords, maintaining law and order in our cities is a fairly substantial full-time job so far as the Government and chief constables are concerned. I am afraid that, although we deeply deplore the behaviour of football supporters who misbehave abroad, it really is not a matter for Her Majesty's Government.

§ Lord MACKIE of BENSHIE
My Lords, is the Minister aware that the trouble 1032 extends far beyond the location of the match, and that small towns in Scotland between Aberdeen and Glasgow live in terror of the visits of the supporters of the two main teams there? Is he also aware that, on a recent occasion, they rampaged through the small and decent town of Forfar, stealing drink, kicking dogs, upsetting old women and generally behaving in a disgraceful manner, and that the problem is really widespread?

§ Lord HARRIS of GREENWICH
Yes, my Lords. I think that the noble Lord is absolutely right. This is a widespread problem, and its effects extend beyond the people who actually attend matches and live in the immediate area. There is also the problem associated with crowds of hooligans who rampage through the streets, even in a number of city centres, following football matches. So far as Scotland is concerned, I understand that my honourable friend the Parliamentary Under-secretary is chairing a working group on football crowd behaviour, which was announced at the end of last year with the following terms of reference: to consider the problems caused by some Scottish football supporters and to make recommendations to the Scottish Football Association and other organisations concerned". I understand that an interim report is expected in the course of this summer.

§ Lord KINNAIRD
My Lords, in view of the urgency of this matter, which has been stressed in the last few minutes, can the Minister suggest to Her Majesty's Government, from a financial angle, that perhaps the police should be better paid?

§ Lord HARRIS of GREENWICH
My Lords, it is certainly the purpose of this Government to bring inflation under control. I believe that to make an award, so far as the police service is concerned, outside the terms of the current pay policy would be wholly irresponsible.

§ Lord KINNAIRD
My Lords, I would sooner pay the police a little more than be hit on the head by a thug.

§ Lord HARRIS of GREENWICH
My Lords, if I may repeat the point, it is the position of the Government that their central objective is to secure proper control of inflation. If a lot of special 1033 cases are made out, then all I can say is that inflation in this country will not be brought under control, and it is our intention to bring it under control