HL Deb 09 March 1977 vol 380 cc1026-8

2.53 p.m.

Viscount HAN WORTH

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether, in considering the comparability of Civil Service pay, account is taken of indexed pensions, relative security of employment, long holidays and good working conditions; and, if so, how the assessment for these benefits is made.

The LORD PRIVY SEAL (Lord Peart)

My Lords, Civil Service pay is determined on the basis of fair comparisons with outside rates. Pay is adjusted to take account of all relevant differences in non-wage benefits between civil servants and their counterparts outside, including indexed pensions, job security and annual working hours. The way in which these adjustments are made is a technical matter, and if the noble Viscount wishes to have more information about the benefits he has mentioned I will write to him.

Viscount HANWORTH

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for that reply. Is he in a position to say how it is that, with all these factors taken into account in the comparability, in the recent debate on industry it appeared that almost universally civil servants and the public sector were getting far better rewards and a much more attractive career than those employed in industry? The result is, of course, that not as many people as one would like are going into industry.

Lord PEART

My Lords, every Government wish to treat their servants well and within reason. There are cases where if one examines rewards in private industry the bias is that way. We have to judge the situation as it comes.

Lord ORR-EWING

My Lords, has the noble Lord observed that the Manifesto Group of Labour Members of Parliament have today published a document stressing the need to create more wealth and to encourage that creation? Ought not pensions for our loyal and retired administrators to be indexed to the same extent as they are in the wealth creating industry? As the Government Pay Research Unit have been in suspense since the incomes policy was launched a year and a half ago, would it not be a good idea if they applied themselves to considering whether the 1¾ per cent. really reflects truly and accurately the extent of the benefit which public pensioners have as against their opposite numbers in the private sector?

Lord PEART

My Lords, that is a rather long question. I am sorry, I have not read that. I read some other news this morning, but I will now go back to my office and look at it. The noble Lord, quite rightly, has pressed me often on this matter. I do not think that there is an attempt here to make the position of civil servants more preferable. What they get is reasonable and sensible.

Lord SLATER

My Lords, in order to clear my mind on this matter, may I ask whether the civil servants are subject to the Whitley machinery which provides comparability, analogues and pay research? Is this still in operation?

Lord PEART

My Lords, the Pay Research Unit is not operating at present, but this is a matter which I have discussed previously in the House and we have debated it. It is a matter we watch carefully.

Lord ORR-EWING

My Lords, as the Pay Research Unit are not employed at the moment—and they are talented and adroit characters—would it not be sensible if they applied their minds to see whether the 1¾ per cent. was, in today's atmosphere and rate of inflation, an accurate reflection of the benefits which are available to the public sector as opposed to the private sector?

Lord PEART

My Lords, I have always argued that it is right to keep the Unit intact even though they are not doing what they did previously. But I emphasise that the Unit's job is to find the facts and present them impartially; no more than that. I will look into the matter which has been mentioned.

Lord HAWKE

My Lords, can the noble Lord the Leader of the House say how it is possible to compare a Service in which it is almost impossible to get the sack with one in which in these days the sack is only too likely?

Lord PEART

My Lords, that is another matter. We can all look at organisations and there may be some weaker brethren, but one has to be sensible.