§ 2.36 p.m.
§ Lord SHINWELLMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government what protection is given to British industrial firms and finance houses who engage in business with the State of Israel and are affected by the boycott by Arab countries.
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, Her Majesty's Government are opposed to all trade boycotts which lack international support and authority. But it is for individual firms to decide their own attitude to the Arab boycott in the light of their commercial judgment. The advice and assistance of officials at the Department of Trade is available to any British firm which wishes to consult them and any such discussions are always undertaken in strict confidence.
§ Lord SHINWELLMy Lords, is my noble friend aware that I regard that Answer as a completely unsatisfactory one? The Government have a responsibility—I affirm this without fear of challenge—to protect British firms against any subversive tactics on behalf of anybody outside this country or within this country. Although I am not blaming my noble friend, because I have no doubt it is a Civil Service reply—certainly it would not be endorsed by a sensible Cabinet—may I ask whether he is aware that the Government must accept the responsibility? 620 They cannot leave it to the judgment of firms which have no power to deal with the matter. This is a matter in which the Government must accept responsibility and act accordingly; the sooner they do so the better. Otherwise they ought to say, "We abandon British firms. They can go where they like. We are not concerned". Do not forget that they pay taxes and are entitled to some representation.
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, the responsibility of the British Government is to the British people. Our trade figures are such that in the last accounting period we exported to Israel £249 million worth of goods and £2,000 million to the Arab world. We have to balance these factors against any emotional view of the rights and wrongs of the Arab boycott.
§ Lord BYERSMy Lords, is it not a fact that this is not an emotional view but is a matter of a moral principle which is at stake? Is it not true that in the past Her Majesty's Government have said that they could not take any action in this country until the United States had legislated against the boycott? Now that the United States has legislated against the boycott by means of the Tax Reform Act, and is contemplating stronger measures, is it not time that Her Majesty's Government took really tough action on this matter?
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, Her Majesty's Government are aware of the United States legislation and will watch its operation in practice.
§ Lord BYERSMy Lords, how long have we to wait for action?
Lord JANNERMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that, where other countries have taken a firm stand against the very serious blackmail of those who are imposing that evil boycott, the firms who were threatened with boycott have had that threat removed? Is it not time that we realised that there is such a thing as facing blackmailers in a properand firm manner, which is the only way in which blackmailers can be stopped from continuing with their blackmail?
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, it is the attitude of Her Majesty's Government that these factors must be left to the judgment of the individual firms. We do not have the facilities to form judgments for every firm which deals with both the Arab world and Israel; but the fact is that the firms seem to be judging fairly effectively. Our exports to both Israel and to the Arab world are rising.
§ Lord COLERAINEMy Lords, would not Her Majesty's Government agree that, in the long run, surrender to blackmail never pays?
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMCertainly, my Lords; it never pays, particularly when commercial judgment is used.
§ Lord SEGALMy Lords, in giving guidance to any British firms which seek their advice, may I ask my noble friend to say why Her Majesty's Government cannot quote the successful action of the United States Government in breaking this Arab boycott and remind these firms that Arab customers invariably make a bee-line for the Marble Arch branch of Marks and Spencer, a firm which has taken a leading part in breaking this anti-Israel boycott?
§ Lord SHINWELLDoes my noble friend intend to answer that supplementary question asked by my noble friend Lord Segal?
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, it is a little early to judge whether the United States legislation is successful. We must watch what happens.
§ Lord SHINWELLMy Lord——
§ Several noble Lords: Order!
Lord JANNERMy Lords, with great respect to the House, this is a very important matter which affects the moral standards of our trading.
§ Lord HAILSHAM of SAINT MARY-LEBONEMy Lords, perhaps the noble Lord, Lord Janner, did not see that another noble Lord was trying to address the House when he rose; the noble Lord, 622 Lord Shinwell, who asked the original Question, had risen before he did.
§ Several noble Lords: Order!
§ Lord SHINWELLMy Lords, I am not asking for any special privilege, nor am I asking about any particular section of people, nor because I am biased in any way. The British people to whom my noble friend referred expect the Government to protect them, to secure them against subversive tactics, to secure them against terrorism and to secure them against blackmail. What do the Government intend to do? Do they intend to do nothing but merely remain an interested spectator? If so, why ask these British firms to pay tax? Answer that question, and no nonsense about it!
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, the British Government are available to give advice and assistance, and that advice and assistance seems to be successful.
Lord JANNERMy Lords, may I ask one more question? My noble friend said that trade with the Arab countries now exceeds the trade with Israel. What moral standard are we adopting when we know that for many years the balance of trade with Israel, so far as we are concerned, has exceeded by far the balance of the whole of the trade with all the Arab States? When are we going to stop utilising subterfuges for expediency instead of concerning ourselves with morality?