§ 3.6 p.m.
§ Lord GISBOROUGHMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government how many work permits have been issued to persons from overseas for employment in the hotel and catering industry in 1977.
Lord WALLACE of COSLANYMy Lords, available figures for hotel and catering exclude workers in hostels and industrial catering. These figures show that in the five months to the end of May just over 900 permits had been issued.
§ Lord GISBOROUGHMy Lords, I thank the noble Lord for his Answer. In view of the number of vacancies for 1218 trained and trainable staff in the Provinces for people who are prepared to work in catering, and the high home unemployment in those same areas, will the Minister consider what can be done to encourage British youth to enter the trade? May I further ask what training schemes exist?
Lord WALLACE of COSLANYMy Lords, without detailed figures at hand, I can say that a considerable number of training schemes exist in various areas. The industry is endeavouring to encourage people to enter into the hotel and catering trades. The Government are concerned about the future of the quota, which was introduced in 1972 by the Conservative Administration. In view of the persistent high level of unemployment, Ministers intend that these special arrangements should be phased out. The quota is reviewed annually, and talks with representatives of the unions, employers, and manpower services about a quota for 1978 are expected to take place later in the year. In the meantime, I agree with the noble Lord that every effort should be made to encourage people to enter training, but in the past one of the problems for the non-skilled section has been the extremely low wages paid. This is a matter for concern. For the skilled workers it is a different matter. Adequate schemes exist and probably need more publicity.
§ Lord LEE of NEWTONMy Lords, before work permits are issued, do the Government make quite sure that the jobs for which people are coming here will be remunerated at the proper trade union rates of pay?
Lord WALLACE of COSLANYYes, my Lords, they do. But there are probably some instances, of course, where official rates may not be observed. This is a matter for investigation to be carried out and reported on where such cases exist. The problem is to obtain factual proof.
§ Lord AVEBURYMy Lords, surely the Minister must be aware that many of these workers are not paid anything like minimum trade union rates. Would he confirm that the vast majority of the 900 permits to which he referred in his first Answer were issued to non-EEC foreign nationals, and that very few permits are 1219 given to Commonwealth citizens? The fact that so many work permits are being issued to foreigners and so few to Commonwealth citizens shows that there is racism in our immigration laws.
Lord WALLACE of COSLANYMy Lords, there is some confusion here, because the noble Lord is probably well aware that special quotas exist to help the citizens of Malta, the Dependent Territories, and United Kingdom passport holders. So far as the low level of wages is concerned, this is a matter for some investigation. I shall pass on the remarks of both noble Lords to my right honourable friend.
§ Lord AVEBURYMy Lords, the Minister did not answer my question. How many of these 900 work permits in the hotel and catering industry were issued to non-EEC foreigners? I did not ask about the Maltese. If the noble Lord does not have this information will he make inquiries and let the House have the information?
Lord GRAYMy Lords, would the Government not agree that, at a time when steps have been taken to strengthen the law relating to food hygiene, the availability of trained staff is very relevant and that sometimes it is the inability of management to obtain trained staff interested in doing a good job that leads to hygiene conditions which are unsatisfactory?
Lord WALLACE of COSLANYYes, my Lords, and this is primarily a matter for the industry concerned. The noble Lord has probably seen recently Press reports and photographs of the "dirty mouse" giving an active portrayal of what can happen to people who do not understand English but who apparently understand the antics of a trained dirty mouse.
§ Lord SUDELEYMy Lords, can the country afford a situation where the hotel industry is short of skilled staff yet at the same time British people can prefer to remain unemployed rather than train for vacancies in the industry?
Lord WALLACE of COSLANYMy Lords, my impression is contrary to that of the noble Lord. People do not prefer to remain unemployed. The view which the noble Lord expressed is a mistaken attitude of mind which unfortunately too many people have. The problem is to provide increased facilities for training and for all sections of the industry to give increased co-operation. Not all the employers are large. There are some extensive schemes of training and in some areas there are excellent schemes. For example, the City College in Norwich has an excellent reputation for turning out trained staff. But in some areas the facilities are not what they should be, and that is a matter we should look into.
§ Lord GISBOROUGHMy Lords, I hope the Minister will not tar the industry with the brush of low wages. Is he aware that, while of course there will always be exceptions, some extremely high wages are paid?
Lord WALLACE of COSLANYMy Lords, one is of course using comprehensive terms about the industry. There are some small sections about which one can be somewhat dubious in regard to their low rates, but the general standard of the bigger sections, the well-known chains of hotels and so on, is a different matter; they have agreements with trade unions and these are effective. It is the smaller organisations, some of them Continental, which are suspect.
§ Baroness FAITHFULLMy Lords, would the noble Lord agree that there is not a proper career structure between the low paid and the untrained working towards training, so that in the catering trade there are two separate categories of worker, with no link between the two, and no career structure?
Lord WALLACE of COSLANYMy Lords, the noble Baroness, Lady Faithfull, is quite right. That was one of the matters dealt with in a Statement made in another place yesterday by my right honourable friend, which unfortunately was not repeated in this House. The emphasis of that scheme is to give training to unskilled workers to give them better employment opportunities.