HL Deb 22 June 1977 vol 384 cc672-4

2.59 p.m.

Lord INGLEWOOD

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they have called for the particular evidence which is claimed to support the allegation made by the chief constable of Staffordshire (as reported in the Press) that judges and magistrates are afraid to deal with criminals as they should.

Lord HARRIS of GREENWICH

My Lords, the chief constable tells me that he did not intend to imply that magistrates or judges were inhibited by fear of reprisals from passing heavy sentences when they thought them appropriate, and that he has no evidence to suggest that judges or magistrates are in any way intimidated.

Lord INGLEWOOD

My Lords, while thanking the noble Lord for that reply, may I ask him whether he would not agree that, whatever else was intended, the remark was ill-advised coming from a chief constable, and not least since it does not take a great deal to imagine the frenzy that would occur in the Association of Chief Officers of Police if a magistrate had made the same sort of remark about the courage of chief constables?

Lord HARRIS of GREENWICH

My Lords, as the House will be aware, Ministers are not responsible for the statements made by chief officers of police. Mr. Rees, who is about to retire as chief constable of Staffordshire, has had a long and distinguished career in the service and I think we should take account of that fact. But certainly he has informed me that he has no such evidence of the kind that was attributed to him in the Press, and certainly I am not aware of any from any other source.

Lord JANNER

My Lords, would my noble friend make it perfectly clear that those of us who have practised in the courts, let alone sat on the magistrates' bench, have not seen any indication of fear on the part of magistrates? In those cases where such reports are frequently given, people who have not been present at the hearing of the case, and have not heard the witnesses, have formed conclusions which do not justify the kind of statements which they make. It is high time that people realised that the magisterial bench itself has much to consider on the question of the public interest as well as the question of the individual himself being rehabilitated.

Lord HARRIS of GREENWICH

Yes, my Lords, I certainly agree with what my noble friend has said.

Lord BLYTON

My Lords, is the Minister aware that this week, so far as the law is concerned, our timbers have been shaken when three High Court judges let off a rapist because he was supposed to have an Army career? When we remember the recent case of the old school tie, when another chap got off, is it not now time that somebody was shaken up on the judicial bench.

Lord HAILSHAM of SAINT MARYLEBONE

My Lords, would it not be a good thing if this House observed its customary practice of discussing the conduct of the Judiciary only on a substantive Motion?

Lord HARRIS of GREENWICH

My Lords, I was about to say that I had indicated already that Ministers are not responsible for the statements made by chief constables, and certainly Ministers are not responsible, nor accountable in this House, for decisions of the Judiciary.