HL Deb 22 June 1977 vol 384 cc669-72

2.52 p.m.

Lord BARNBY

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government to name the Central African emergent countries which they consider exercise "free and democratic political processes" in correct interpretation of the Commonwealth Principles universally agreed to in 1971.

The MINISTER of STATE, FOREIGN and COMMONWEALTH OFFICE (Lord Goronwy-Roberts)

My Lords, it is not our practice, save in very exceptional circumstances, to comment on the internal régimes of fellow members of the Commonwealth.

Lord BARNBY

My Lords, time will be required to assess the implications of that lengthy Answer. Since in the opinion of many there is doubt about the constitutional purity of several of those Central African Governments, why, in the case of Tanzania, where there are definitely Leftist Marxist leanings, as proved by the widespread appropriation of private property, is it necessary to consult those people with regard to the governance of British territory in Africa, and why is it desirable to seek external advice rather than assist an internal settlement?

Lord GORONWY-ROBERTS

My Lords, I am quite sure that, like the rest of us, the noble Lord would wish to do everything possible to achieve an internal settlement between the various peoples of Rhodesia. As to his equation of Leftist leanings as being necessarily anti-democratic, I beg to disagree. However, what he said about the variations of progresss towards democracy in Central and Southern Africa, and indeed in other parts of the world, is perfectly true. It is his and my country—and I count myself to be very much a part of the United Kingdom—and it has taken possibly a thousand years to reach our present stage of democracy. Nevertheless, I think that none of us would regard even the present stage as being perfect, even in the United Kingdom.

Lord PAGET of NORTHAMPTON

My Lords, what does the noble Lord mean by "progress towards democracy"? So far as I understand it, each of these countries was presented with a Westminster style democracy; they each accepted that democracy; they have each reneged on that democracy, and every single one of them has chosen to adopt a fascist style one-Party dictatorship.

Lord GORONWY-ROBERTS

My Lords, I think my noble friend (with whom I have lately found myself in the pleasurable position of paying increasing respect for his contributions to debates), like the noble Lord, Lord Barnby, tends to equate the Westminster style democracy with democracy everywhere. We are beginning to realise that perhaps the Westminster style is not always suitable for every part of the world and, therefore, if emergent independent countries from the British Empire and Commonwealth accepted certain patterns to begin with and then modified them, I think that is inevitable. We have modified our own and may well do so again in the near future.

Lord HARMAR-NICHOLLS

My Lords, does not the noble Lord recognise that my noble friend's Question gave him the opportunity to pay a compliment to some of our Allies? The Question does not ask about those who have not exercised free and democratic political processes. It asks whether the Government can name those who have exercised free and democratic political processes. I should have thought that in doing that he would be paying a great compliment to people who deserve it.

Lord GORONWY-ROBERTS

My Lords, hardly in Question and Answer, as the noble Lord, Lord Harmar-Nicholls, well knows. Possibly in a debate, where there are a large number of countries in varying stages of advance towards real democracy. I did not want to name any particular country, but I will name Botswana. If we were to achieve in Rhodesia the stage and status of democracy which Botswana has already achieved we should be well content.

Lord GLADWYN

My Lords, would the noble Lord not agree that the phrase "free and democratic political processes" is incapable of any precise definition?

Lord GORONWY-ROBERTS

My Lords, possibly, except perhaps by the noble Lord himself. There are a number of very useful phrases in the Singapore Declaration which at first sight may not be susceptible of immediate precise definition. For instance, one with which I am sure the noble Lord, Lord Barnby, and my noble friend Lord Paget might immediately agree, the Singapore Declaration, quoted in the original Question, says: We recognise racial prejudice as a dangerous sickness threatening the healthy development of the human race and racial discrimination as an unmitigated evil of society".

Lord BROCKWAY

My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord whether he would not agree that the present composition of this House shows that we have not yet reached democracy in this country after one thousand years, and whether he would also agree that in the one-Party States of many African countries there is a democratic right for the selection of candidates which often leads to a complete change in the Legislature.

Lord GORONWY-ROBERTS

My Lords, referring to the second part of the noble Lord's question, that is absolutely true, especially for a country like Zambia where the primary elections are indeed very democratic and selective. As to the first part of his question in regard to one-Party States, I thought for a moment he was going to refer to a one-Party House. However, we evolve in this country and no doubt we shall evolve in this House for the better, in the future.

Lord BYERS

My Lords, would it not be true to say that we cannot claim real democracy in this country until we have a representative electoral system?

Lord PEART

My Lords, I think we might proceed now with the next Question.