§ 2.48 p.m.
§ Lord BARNBYMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether, in view of the massive aid given by this country to India, they will state what investigations have been made into wage levels of industrial workers there, on the lines of the investigations made into wage levels in the Republic of South Africa; and when the results of such investigations will be published.
§ Baroness LLEWELYN-DAVIES of HASTOEMy Lords, Her Majesty's Government are not aware that any such investigations have been made.
§ Lord BARNBYMy Lords, arising out of that reply, may I ask the noble Baroness two questions: First, is it correctly understood that the Government have initiated, with the Board of Trade and the Confederation of British Industry, a further burst of activity on inquiries into wage levels in South Africa arising from the internal structure of the Republic? Secondly, does not the caste system in India indicate discrimination, and would it not be right to say that, in many cases, the wage levels for non-whites in India differ as much from the minimum living standard as is the case in the Republic of South Africa? May I ask what is being done about it?
§ Baroness LLEWELYN-DAVIES of HASTOEMy Lords, I am not aware of any burst of new activity on the part of the Board of Trade in the direction which the noble Lord indicates. As to the wage levels of industrial workers in India, as the noble Lord will know, India is one of the poorest countries in the world and, because of that, naturally the levels of wages all over the country reflect the fact that it is poor and cannot afford to pay wages on the same level as South Africa, which happens to be a very well-off country. Nevertheless, the workers in India operate under free conditions and they are able to join trade unions, and, moreover, free trade unions.
§ Lord BARNBYMy Lords, surely India was a much more wealthy country than South Africa 250 years ago.
§ Baroness GAITSKELLMy Lords, is it true that we give massive aid to India, 866 a country where there is an extremely high population and a great deal of poverty? Do we give massive aid?
§ Baroness LLEWELYN-DAVIES of HASTOENo, my Lords. India is in receipt of rather less aid than many countries which are richer, and what we give is, I think, amply justified. Noble Lords will be very glad to know that our latest grant will result in something like £150 million to £170 million of British goods and services.
§ Lord HARMAR-NICHOLLSMy Lords, in the absence of an investigation, and taking into account what the noble Baroness has said about the relative wealth of the two countries, has she a schedule of the level of wages in the two countries and, if she has, can she give it to the House?
§ Baroness LLEWELYN-DAVIES of HASTOEMy Lords, I have no schedule of the wages in India because, as I explained, no investigations have taken place. There was, as the noble Lord will remember, a report by the Industry Sub-Committee of the House of Commons in 1973 into the conditions and pay of people working in British firms or their subsidiaries in South Africa, and I have that report here, if the noble Lord would like to have it.
§ Lord BROCKWAYMy Lords, is it not the case that the Indian Government have outlawed discrimination by the caste system? Also, can the noble Baroness tell us whether India has accepted the working conditions laid down by the International Labour Office?
§ Baroness LLEWELYN-DAVIES of HASTOEMy Lords, to the best of my knowledge the latter part of that question is true, and so of course is the former part.
§ Lord MACKIE of BENSHIEMy Lords, would it not be right to say that in this case two blacks do not make a white?