HL Deb 25 July 1977 vol 386 cc766-73

4.12 p.m.

Report stage resumed.

[Amendment No. 3 not moved.]

Lord SANDFORD moved Amendment No. 4: Page 8, line 17, at end insert— ( ) Where the Board intend to exercise their powers under this section to work and get minerals by means of open-cast operations otherwise than in association with working and getting coal, the Secretary of State shall not give his approval under subsection (1) above unless he is satisfied, after consultation with the Secretary of State for the Environment and having regard to the overall demand on the capacity of the mineral industry, that the exercise of such powers by the Board would be commercially reasonable and in the national interest".

The noble Lord said: My Lords, I have spoken to this and all subsequent Amendments except No. 8 and, unless any noble Lord has further questions relating to it which I can deal with, I propose to move it formally.

4.13 p.m.

On Question, Whether the said Amendment (No. 4) shall be agreed to?

Their Lordships divided: Contents, 109; Not-Contents, 59.

CONTENTS
Abinger, L. Clwyd, L. Glasgow, E.
Addison, V. Cornwallis, L. Greenway, L.
Aldenham, L. Craigton, L. Hailsham of Saint Marylebone, L.
Alexander of Tunis, E. Cranbrook, E.
Alport, L. Cullen of Ashbourne, L. Hankey, L.
Amory, V. Daventry, V. Hawke, L.
Atholl, D. Davidson, V. Hives, L.
Avon, E. de Clifford, L. Home of the Hirsel, L.
Balfour of Inchrye, L. Denham, L. [Teller.] Hood, V.
Belstead, L. Derwent, L. Hornsby-Smith, B.
Berkeley, B. Donegall, M. Howe, E.
Blake, L. Drumalbyn, L. Hunt of Fawley, L.
Boyd-Carpenter, L. Ebbisham, L. Hylton-Foster, B.
Broadbridge, L. Eccles, V. Inglewood, L.
Camoys, L. Effingham, E. Jellicoe, E.
Carr of Hadley, L. Elles, B. Jessel, L.
Carrington, L. Elliot of Harwood, B. Kemsley, V.
Cathcart, E. Emmet of Amberley, B, Killearn, L.
Chelwood, L. Erroll of Hale, L. Long, V.
Clancarty, E. Falmouth, V. Loudoun, C.
Clitheroe, L. Gainford, L. Lucas of Chilworth, L.
McFadzean, L. Newall, L. Stamp, L.
Macleod of Borve, B. Noel-Buxton, L. Strathclyde, L.
Malmesbury, E. Northchurch, B. Strathcona and Mount Royal, L.
Mancroft, L. Orr-Ewing, L. Strathspey, L.
Marley, L. Rankeillour, L. Stuart of Findhorn, V.
Massereene and Ferrard, V. Redmayne, L. Sudeley, L.
Merrivale, L. Robbins, L. Swinton, E.
Mersey, V. Romney, E. Teynham, L.
Middleton, L. Sackville, L. Thomas, L.
Monck, V. St. Aldwyn, E. Trefgarne, L.
Monk Bretton, L. St. Davids, V. Trenchard, V.
Montgomery of Alamein, V. Salisbury, M. Tweedsmuir, L.
Mottistone, L. Sandford, L. Vivian, L.
Mowbray and Stourton, L. [Teller.] Sandys, L. Ward of North Tyneside, B.
Selkirk, E. Ward of Witley, V.
Moyne, L. Sharples, B. Young, B.
NOT-CONTENTS
Ampthill, L. Fletcher, L. Phillips, B.
Ardwick, L. Gaitskell, B. Pitt of Hampstead, L.
Aylestone, L. George-Brown, L. Ponsonby of Shulbrede, L.
Bacon, B. Gordon-Walker, L. Popplewell, L.
Birk, B. Goronwy-Roberts, L. Ritchie-Calder, L.
Blyton, L. Hale, L. Sainsbury, L.
Boston of Faversham, L. Henderson, L. Samuel, V.
Bowden, L. Janner, L. Segal, L.
Brockway, L. Leatherland, L. Shepherd, L.
Bruce of Donington, L. Lee of Newton, L. Snow, L.
Buckinghamshire, E. Listowel, E. Stedman, B.
Castle, L. Llewelyn-Davies of Hastoe, B. Stewart of Alvechurch, B.
Champion, L. Lovell-Davis, L. Stow Hill, L.
Chorley, L. Maybray-King, L. Strabolgi, L.
Collison, L. Murray of Gravesend, L. Thomson of Monifieth, L.
Cooper of Stockton Heath, L. Oram, L. [Teller.] Wallace of Coslany, L. [Teller.]
Davies of Penrhys, L. Paget of Northampton, L. Wells-Pestell, L.
Donaldson of Kingsbridge, L. Pargiter, L. Winterbottom, L.
Douglas of Barloch, L. Parry, L. Wynne-Jones, L.
Douglass of Cleveland, L. Peart, L. (L. Privy Seal.)

Resolved in the affirmative, and Amendment agreed to accordingly.

4.22 p.m.

Lord SANDFORD moved Amendment No. 5: Page 8, line 21, leave out from ("which") to ("to") and insert ("is necessary").

The noble Lord said: My Lords, I beg to move Amendment No. 5. Again, this is a case where I have spoken to the Amendment and explained that the Amendment which makes the exercise of these powers by the National Coal Board subject to the approval of the Secretary of State makes the wording in line 21, which relates to the opinion of the Board, inappropriate, and I hope that the noble Lord will agree that in view of the two decisions that the House has just taken the Amendment can be accepted. I beg to move.

Lord STRABOLGI

My Lords, I should like to say a few words at this stage because the Amendment is, I agree, loosely linked, but there are other aspects to it, and some rather important reasons why I am to suggest to the House that it should not be accepted. No doubt unintentionally, the Amendment appears to call into question the competence, or the good faith, of the National Coal Board in exercising its judgment. The fact is that it is the Board which has to decide to what extent to enter into transactions to facilitate the proper exercise of its powers under the clause. There is no escaping that. And, in fact, surely the Board is likely to be in the best position to judge just which activities it is appropriate, or advisable, to carry on under the relevant subsections of the clause. Who, otherwise, is to be the judge?

It is important to bear in mind, too, that the wording of subsection (2) of Clause 10 follows that of subsections (2) and (3) of Section 1 of the 1946 Nationalisation Act. That Act has stood the test of time, and I suggest that it would be unwise to depart from the kind of wording that it has become customary to use in defining the powers of, not only the National Coal Board, but of other statutory corporations. Another reason why I submit that the Amendment should not be accepted, but will, I hope, be withdrawn, is that Clause 9 of this Bill includes identical wording to that now proposed for deletion in connection with a related activity. Correctly, to my mind, noble Lords opposite chose not to move an Amendment to delete that wording. It would, I suggest, be very anomalous if the Bill were to leave this House, this revising Chamber, with an alteration to the same wording in Clause 10 which it is thought fit to leave alone in Clause 9. For all those reasons, I hope that the Amendment will be withdrawn.

Lord SANDFORD

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for making that point, which I agree has some validity. Certainly the retention of the original words, though I think inappropriate, will not do any harm, as we have now secured that the whole business of whether or not these powers should be exercised is, at the end of the day, subject to the approval of the Secretary of State. I agree with the noble Lord that there is something to be said for consistency between the two clauses. In view of that situation, I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Lord SANDFORD moved Amendment No. 6:

Page 8, line 23, at end insert— (" ( ) Within the period of five years beginning with the day on which this Act shall come into force, where the Board intend to exercise their powers under this section to work and get minerals by means of open-cast operations otherwise than in association with working and getting coal, the Board shall notify such organisations representative of the mineral industry as appear to the Board to be likely to have an interest in such operations, and shall consider any representations made by those organisations as a result of such notification; and the Secretary of State shall not give his approval under subsection (1) above unless he is satisfied that the Board have taken into account any such representations.")

The noble Lord said: My Lords, Amendment No. 6, like Amendment No. 4, seeks only to incorporate in Clause 10 the assurances which the noble Lord and his right honourable friend have given at various stages of the Bill with increasing emphasis. This Amendment is concerned with the undertaking to notify the mineral industry, to listen to its representations, and for the Secretary of State to be satisfied that those representations have been taken into account. Unless any other noble Lord has any questions on this matter, I simply beg to move.

Lord STRABOLGI

My Lords, as I explained during the Committee stage and have repeated today, an undertaking has already been given by my honourable friend the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Energy that if, during the five years from the passing of the Bill, the Board planned, using the power under Clause 10, to embark on a project for the extraction of bulk minerals not in association with the working and getting of coal, the Board would notify the Sand and Gravel Association and the British Quarrying and Slag Federation, so that there could be discussion about any points of concern to them.

I venture to suggest that this is a very reasonable and, in fact, a handsome, undertaking. I remember, too, the words about nationalised industries and the attitude to them of noble Lords opposite, which were used by my noble friends Lady Lee of Asheridge and Lord Lee of Newton. I wonder how many concerns in the private sector, which sought to widen the scope of their memoranda of association, would give a similar undertaking to other commercial interests? Here is an undertaking given, not on the spur of the moment, but on full consideration by the Government, in both Houses of Parliament, with the entire agreement of a statutory Corporation—one of the most important statutory Corporations in this country and, indeed, in the world—the National Coal Board. It is not given idly. There is very little more I can say, beyond recommending to your Lordships that this totally unnecessary Amendment should not be accepted.

Lord SANDFORD

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for repeating those assurances with such emphasis. We are well satisfied with them. All that the Amendment seeks to do is to incorporate them into the Bill, which I am sure we as legislators must do, because they are of such significance.

4.29 p.m.

On Question, Whether the said Amendment (No. 6) shall be agreed to?

Resolved in the affirmative, and Amendment agreed to accordingly.

Their Lordships divided: Contents, 118: Not-Contents, 61.

CONTENTS
Abinger, L. Eccles, V. Middleton, L.
Addison, V. Effingham, E. Monck, V.
Adeane, L. Elles, B. Monk Bretton, L.
Aldenham, L. Elliot of Harwood, B. Montgomery of Alamein, V.
Alexander of Tunis, E. Emmet of Amberley, B. Mottistone, L.
Alport, L. Erroll of Hale, L. Mowbray and Stourton, L. [Teller.]
Amory, V. Exeter, M.
Arran, E. Falmouth, V. Moyne, L.
Atholl, D. Gainford, L. Newall, L.
Auckland, L. Glasgow, E. Northchurch, B.
Avon, E. Greenway, L. Orr-Ewing, L.
Balfour of Inchrye, L. Hailsham of Saint Marylebone, L. Rankeillour, L.
Barnby, L. Robbins, L.
Beaumont of Whitley, L. Hankey, L. Romney, E.
Belstead, L. Hawke, L. Sackville, L.
Berkeley, B. Hives, L. St. Aldwyn, E.
Birdwood, L. Home of the Hirsel, L. St. Davids, V.
Boyd-Carpenter, L. Hood, V. Salisbury, M.
Camoys, L. Hornsby-Smith, B. Sandford, L.
Carr of Hadley, L. Howe, E. Sandys, L.
Carrington, L. Hunt of Fawley, L. Selkirk, E.
Cathcart, E. Ilchester, E. Selsdon, L.
Chelwood, L. Inglewood, L. Sharples, B.
Clitheroe, L. Jessel, L. Strathclyde, L.
Clwyd, L. Kemsley, V. Strathcona and Mount Royal, L.
Cork and Orrery, E. Killearn, L. Strathspey, L.
Cornwallis, L. Kinross, L. Stuart of Findhorn, V.
Craigton, L. Kintore, E. Sudeley, L.
Cranbrook, E. Lauderdale, E. Swinton, E.
Croft, L. Long, V. Teviot, L.
Cullen of Ashbourne, L. Lucas of Chilworth, L. Teynham, L.
Daventry, V. Lyell, L. Thomas, L.
Davidson, V. McFadzean, L. Trefgarne, L.
de Clifford, L. Macleod of Borve, B. Trenchard, V.
Denham, L. [Teller.] Malmesbury, E. Tweedsmuir, L.
Derwent, L. Mancroft, L. Vivian, L.
Digby, L. Marley, L. Wakefield of Kendal, L.
Donegall, M. Massereene and Ferrard, V. Ward of North Tyneside, B.
Drumalbyn, L. Merrivale, L. Ward of Witley, V.
Ebbisham, L. Mersey, V. Young, B.
NOT-CONTENTS
Ampthill, L. Goronwy-Roberts, L. Ponsonby of Shulbrede, L.
Ardwick, L. Hale, L. Popplewell, L.
Aylestone, L. Hanworth, V. Ritchie-Calder, L.
Bacon, B. Henderson, L. Roberthall, L.
Birk, B. Heycock, L. Sainsbury, L.
Blyton, L. Houghton of Sowerby, L. Segal, L.
Bowden, L. Janner, L. Shepherd, L.
Brockway, L. Lauderdale, E. Spens, L.
Bruce of Donington, L. Lee of Newton, L. Stamp, L.
Buckinghamshire, E. Listowel, E. Stedman, B.
Castle, L. Llewelyn-Davies of Hastoe, B. Stewart of Alvechurch, B.
Champion, L. Loudoun, C. Stow Hill, L.
Chorley, L. Lovell-Davis, L. Strabolgi, L.
Clancarty, E. Murray of Gravesend, L. Taylor of Mansfield, L.
Collison, L. Noel-Buxton, L. Thomson of Monifieth, L.
Cooper of Stockton Heath, L. Oram, L. [Teller.] Wallace of Coslany, L. [Teller.]
Davies of Leek, L. Paget of Northampton, L. Wells-Pestell, L.
Davies of Penrhys, L. Pargiter, L. Winterbottom, L.
Donaldson of Kingsbridge, L. Parry, L. Wynne-Jones, L.
Douglas of Barloch, L. Peart, L. (L. Privy Seal.)
Douglass of Cleveland, L. Pitt of Hampstead, L.

4.37 p.m.

Lord SANDFORD moved Amendment No. 7: Page 8, line 26, at end insert—("and the Opencast Coal Act 1958.")

The noble Lord said: My Lords, this Amendment is consequential on the previous Amendment, incorporating the words on the Marshalled List in line 26 because of the content of the previous Amendments, and I hope that the noble Lord will feel that, if the others are to be in the Bill, this one should be as well. I beg to move.

Lord STRABOLGI

Yes, my Lords, I agree that this is a consequential Amendment, following the others which have already been pressed and carried.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Lord SANDFORD had given Notice of his intention to move as Amendment No. 8: Leave out Clause 10.

The noble Lord said: My Lords, this Amendment was tabled merely to guard against the eventuality that, at the end of the day, the noble Lord would say that he would like to take the clause away and introduce another in another place; but, as matters have not turned out that way, I do not propose to move it.

Then, Standing Order No. 43 having been suspended (pursuant to Resolution of 13th July), Bill read 3a, with the Amendments, and passed, and returned to the Commons.