HL Deb 25 July 1977 vol 386 cc757-66

3.50 p.m.

Lord GORONWY-ROBERTS

My Lords, I rise to repeat a Statement on Rhodesia which is now being made in another place by my right honourable friend the Foreign and Commonwealth Secretary. The Statement is as follows:

"As the House knows, I visited Washington over the weekend, primarily to discuss the Anglo-United States peace initiative for achieving a negotiated settlement in Rhodesia. I spent nine hours in discussion with Secretary Vance and one and a half hours with the President.

"Mr. Vance and I have agreed to meet again in London around 11th and 12th August. Meanwhile, detailed work will continue with a view to putting forward specific Anglo-United States proposals to all the parties.

"We are all agreed that the situation in Rhodesia is potentially so serious that the Anglo-United States initiative, despite all the difficulties, should continue and that we should do all that we can to bring about an independent non-racial Zimbabwe after a fair election and on the basis of universal suffrage. Peace can only come from agreement between those people, black and white, who will be living together in an independent Zimbabwe."

My Lords, that completes the Statement.

Lord CARRINGTON

My Lords, it is customary to thank the Government for repeating a Statement of this kind, but at this particular juncture I find this a not very informative Statement. Even allowing for the difficulties of timing, which I accept, I think that the House ought to know a little more than simply to be told that this is "potentially so serious" a situation that we must press for a solution and that: Peace can only come from agreement between — black and white". There has been some criticism of the decision by Mr. Smith to hold an election at this time. I should have thought that that was about the only thing he could do, as his own political position is such that if he is to negotiate it is necessary for him to get a mandate. I very much hope that if Mr. Smith—as I imagine he will—gets an overwhelming mandate from his electorate, he will use that mandate to negotiate a reasonable settlement, because I agree with the Government that this situation is very serious indeed.

The Statement is unsatisfactory in the sense that Parliament is adjourning at the end of this week for three months and we shall have no opportunity to know what the Government's proposals are, or, indeed, to debate them. We have no idea what the Government are proposing in their new initiative. Would it be possible at any rate for the noble Lord, Lord Goronwy-Roberts, to give us some indication, first, as to whether or not it is proposed that there should be a General Election or an election of some kind in Rhodesia? One of the factors which strikes most of us as curious is that no one has yet asked the people of Rhodesia what they want. If there is to be an election, on what franchise will it be held and how will it be organised?

Secondly, could the noble Lord tell the House whether the Government still propose that there should be an amalgamation, as I understand it, of the present Rhodesian security forces and the guerrilla forces of the Patriotic Front into a new security force? That is a question which needs an answer if there is to be any solution in the future.

Lord GLADWYN

My Lords, I, too, should like to thank the noble Lord, Lord Goronwy-Roberts, for repeating the Statement, although, as the noble Lord, Lord Carrington, said, it is rather an unsatisfactory one. Parliament is adjourning for three months without knowing anything at all of the Government's intentions or what is likely to happen while we are in Recess.

I trust that the Anglo-United States proposals will be formulated as soon as possible, in fact, immediately after the next meeting with Mr. Vance, and I hope that once they have been formulated we shall unhesitatingly pursue them and continue to pursue them to the limit of our ability. I assume that the proposals, whatever they are, will contain recommendations for elections on the basis of one man, one vote. If that is not so, the Government will be abandoning much of what they have already said.

If that is so, and as I think the noble Lord, Lord Carrington, hinted, does not much depend on the result of the election that Mr. Smith will hold on his own account in Rhodesia?—because if he emerges triumphant from that election, he and his régime would be the only people who could possibly organise any direct elections on the basis of one man, one vote. If he does not organise them, no one will. If the extremists, for instance, turn him out, as they may, they will not heed any advice from the British and the Americans—of course they will not. Therefore, the Anglo-American plan would presumably have to be put into effect by some kind of external means, which seems very difficult. What is much more likely, I fear, is that we should have to await the development of the situation, the collapse of the régime and the almost inevitable tribal war which would then follow. In the event, therefore, of things getting seriously out of hand and a terrible situation arising, would the Government consider recalling Parliament?

3.57 p.m.

Lord GORONWY-ROBERTS

My Lords, I wish to thank both noble Lords for their gratitude, however muted, for this Statement and, in the circumstances, for their forbearance. The noble Lord, Lord Carrington, referred to Mr. Smith's mandate. No doubt that will be evaluated by everybody, including black Rhodesians, for what it is worth. The noble Lord, Lord Carrington, and the noble Lord, Lord Gladwyn, referred to the fact that this juncture in the discussions between us and our American friends happens when both Houses of Parliament are on the point of rising. That is undoubtedly a difficulty; it is inevitable.

As to the specific point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Gladwyn, certainly in this, as in any other matters where a position of real emergency arises, the normal channels of consultation about early recall would no doubt be resorted to. The noble Lord, Lord Carrington, asked me about the kind of General Election that we look forward to in Rhodesia and the basis of the voting. In answer to his point I shall quote the Statement which, in this respect at least, is very informative. It says: … after a fair election and on the basis of universal suffrage". I believe that that answers his point. As to the "amalgamation of forces", as he called it, there will have to be some changes in the Rhodesian security forces during the transitional period. The question of how they should be reorganised has been one of the most difficult issues. But no decisions have been taken—I repeat, no decisions have been taken—and we acknowledge that the whole question is one that requires detailed negotiation.

Lord HOME of the HIRSEL

My Lords, if we must assume, as I think we must, that the franchise for a constitutional settlement will consist of one man, one vote—and the noble Lord has made that clear—will he recognise that precise proposals for security, both internal and external, then become of absolute importance if there is to be a multiracial society in Rhodesia? Will the Secretary of State therefore, between now and 11th August and indeed after that, give the closest consideration to the possibilities of the organisation of the security force? Can he say what the next stage will be when the Secretary of State and Mr. Vance have finally made up their minds on matters, including the security proposals? Will this then be put to the Rhodesians, and certainly to Mr. Smith and Dr. Muzorewa?

Lord GORONWY-ROBERTS

My Lords, I very much welcome Lord Home's intervention on a point which I know my right honourable friend will instantly agree with. It is clearly of the utmost importance that the transitional stage, involving elective procedures, should be properly secured. As to the second point he put, may I quote the second part of the second paragraph of the Statement again: Meanwhile, detailed work will continue with a view to putting forward specific Anglo-United States proposals to all the parties".

Lord ALPORT

My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord three things. First, will the Government hear in mind the paramount importance of the necessity that, when their plan is issued, it is in sufficient detail to carry conviction among Europeans and Africans in Rhodesia, and also to make clear what, if any, part of it is negotiable? Secondly, will the Foreign Secretary remember that he has already undertaken that no party to the present situation there will be entitled to a veto as to the participation of any other party in any proceedings that take place subsequent to the present negotiations? Will he make certain, too, that when the plan is issued it is issued with the full authority of the United States and British Governments, and that every effort is made to ensure that it is known and understood in Rhodesia itself via the various channels of communication available to us, so that the people can understand the full implications and, not as so often in the past, be led astray by casual interpretations by vested interests within Rhodesia?

Lord GORONWY-ROBERTS

My Lords, I shall take the last point first. Certainly full publicity and explanation of whatever proposals emanate finally from the Anglo-United States initiative will be necessary, and I think I can give the undertaking that this will be done. As to the point the noble Lord made that such proposals should be seen to carry the full authority of the two Governments, our Government and that of the United States, they have been engaged for some time, as the House knows, in detailed and close discussion precisely on this point. One would naturally expect that when the proposals are finalised they will be put forward with the full authority of the two Governments. Indeed, the presence of the American President, perhaps somewhat unusually in this kind of diplomatic context, is I think an indication of the intention of the American Government to play a full part in the preparation and the presentation of these proposals.

As to the second point made by the noble Lord, that there will be no veto by one party to the presence of another, I would entirely agree. We seek the widest possible representation of Rhodesian opinion at the time when any proposals that emerge are put to the peoples of Rhodesia, of Zimbabwe. It may be that we can improve upon the width and the length of the spectrum that emerged for the Geneva Conference where certain elements among the white Rhodesians were not represented.

The first point referred to the need for these proposals to be in sufficient detail. This, I think, explains the reason why these discussions have continued, as they have, for some weeks and may yet continue for a considerable time. I do not anticipate that there will be an outcome which might place Parliament at a disadvantage chronologically about discussing them, or indeed, short of a new real emergency, necessitate the course suggested by the noble Lord, Lord Gladwyn. But in answer to the noble Lord, Lord Alport, on that point, Yes: we hope the proposals will be in sufficient detail to comprise a working solution by agreement of this problem.

Lord HANKEY

My Lords, on a previous occasion the noble Lord was so good as to say that he would consider with the Foreign Secretary the possibility of sending some sort of representative to Rhodesia. Is it not a pity, in view of the tremendous issues now at stake, and of the absolute necessity for agreement, to which the noble Lord has drawn attention, that we do not have any representatives, so far as I am aware, in Rhodesia? Do we rely on an American representative, or are we hoping to deal with this at arm's length? The Foreign Secretary having taken so much trouble about contacting everybody, is it not a pity that we should start this most complicated negotiation at such a disadvantage? Would it not really be worth sending now a representative of some sort, under whatever title, to Rhodesia, to advise the Government how to handle the matter?

Lord GORONWY-ROBERTS

My Lords, I shall take note of what the noble Lord has said, not for the first time. We do not rule out this suggestion for implementation at the appropriate moment. I can assure him that we have not been disadvantaged so far by the arrangements we have for contact and consultation in Rhodesia. But I repeat that we do not rule out such a proposition.

Lord CARADON

My Lords, would it be suitable at this moment for all of us perhaps to join together in welcoming the fact that the drift which has been going on for so long in regard to Rhodesia is not to continue, and to welcome the decision of the Government, in close cooperation with the United States, to take a new initiative on a basis which now gains increasing support? Is it not to be noted from what has been said even today that there is agreement that there must be a new Constitution; that there is agreement that there must be a full and free election on a full adult suffrage, and that we therefore have certain principles and purposes which I believe are fully agreed on both sides of the House and throughout the country?

But there is one main and perhaps central difficulty to which we should perhaps address special attention, which is the difficulty of transition. From the first it has seemed to many of us that there must be an independent authority for the period of transition to see the thing through, to see a new Constitution prepared, and the elections carried out in a way which can be satisfactory to all. I have thought, and many of us have thought for a long time, that it should be an independent authority. I should have thought originally it should be a British authority. It could be another independent authority. It could be a Commonwealth authority, or a United Nations authority. But I trust—in fact I am sure—that the Government, in carrying a great deal of support on the purposes which are now to be achieved, will give their earnest attention to the necessity of making it clear, both to the illegal régime and to the Africans concerned, that there is an independent authority to see this thing through to full independence on the basis of free elections.

Lord GORONWY-ROBERTS

My Lords, I think that my noble friend's point about the need for authoritative guarantees that the crucial period of transition will be seen to a successful outcome is yell taken. I think it links with the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Home, about the need for security on the spot to buttress any movement forward to independence through a transitional stage. I have no doubt at all that Her Majesty's Government, and my right honourable friend in particular, will take full note of what has been said by the two noble Lords.

I welcome what the noble Lord, Lord Caradon, speaking as he does with very considerable authority, has said about the possibilities. We rule out no option in regard to the way to secure authoritatively a position of security on the spot. What he said is part of the consideration now continuing. I very much welcome what he said about this Statement as marking perhaps a pause or stop in the drift which this very difficult and dangerous situation seemed to many to be taking. The fact is that there has been and is very close consultation between us and the Americans as to the best way to move forward, and consultation also with the peoples of Southern Africa and in even wider fields.

Lord CARRINGTON

My Lords, perhaps I may put one more question to the Minister. I agree with the remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Caradon; the transitional period is essential, as are the arrangements for the election, to see that it is held fairly. I quite understand that the Minister may not be in a position at this moment to tell us the details of the Government's proposals. As I said earlier, that puts us in some difficulty as Parliament is adjourning for three months. Did I understand the noble Lord to say in one of his earlier answers that this did not matter very much because he did not think anything would emerge for three months before Parliament resumes?

Lord GORONWY-ROBERTS

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Carrington, is of course entitled to translate my remarks in the way he thinks fit. I was responding to the noble Lord, Lord Gladwyn, by saying that we have been engaged for some weeks in close consultation with our American friends; speaking personally, I see this going on for at least a few weeks more. It may well be that, chronologically speaking, the difficulty he raised may not happen, but beyond that I do not think it would be reasonable for me to go.

Lord LEE of NEWTON

My Lords, reverting to the point about Parliament recessing for three months without the Parties knowing precisely what the proposals are, may I ask my noble friend to agree that perhaps the country would feel more easy on this issue if it was known that some arrangements had been made? Perhaps a collection of appropriate Privy Councillors could be brought together if things should turn on a point which may divide the Parties here. It would, I think, he of some assistance if the country, in the absence of Parliament, knew there was machinery as between the Parties if things should go wrong.

Lord GORONWY-ROBERTS

That would certainly be a matter for judgment, my Lords, according to the way things moved. I repeat that, subject to the situation as it has been reached, all these options about consultation with Parliament will be instantly studied. I do not think it is necessary for me to go beyond that. We are all aware of the arrangements

that can be made, if necessary, for a recall of Parliament for a purpose that is an emergency.