HL Deb 26 January 1977 vol 379 cc468-9

2.48 p.m.

Lord GLADWYN

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they agree with the finding of a study undertaken for the Institute of Strategic Studies by Mr. D. C. R. Heyhoe of the working of the European Programme Group; namely, that unless Ministers shortly "take up the reins" there is a danger that it will, failing political impetus and direction, become too bureaucratised, and the undoubted advantages of membership and of American good will consequently be lost.

Lord WINTERBOTTOM

My Lords, as my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Defence has said in another place, the Government are playing an active part in the work of the European Programme Group, to which my right honourable friend attaches importance. I can assure the noble Lord that the Secretary of State and his ministerial colleagues, recognising that the European Programme Group is the main European forum for co-operation in defence procurement, exercise full direction over the United Kingdom's contribution to it. They support the present organisation of the Group which is flexible and pragmatic and at present offers the best means of maintaining the impetus of the programme of work now in hand.

Lord GLADWYN

My Lords, I thank the Minister for that reply, but does he not think that such progress as has been made in the Euro-Group for instance, has been due to constant ministerial presence and pressure, and that unless such presence and pressure is exercised in the case of the European Programme Group, it is only too likely to follow the sad example of a rather similar body established many years ago under the auspices of Western European Union, which has done nothing at all?

Lord WINTERBOTTOM

My Lords, the noble Lord's experience is far longer and wider than mine. He will remember that the European Programme Group is the grandson of "Euro dinners", which he may remember was an informal body set up under the leadership of my right honourable friend the Secretary of State of that day, Denis Healey, when in fact Europe started to talk as a specific element within the NATO defence structure. This led to the Eurogroup which is in fact an existing organisation with its own secretariat, and we are now moving forward to the European Programme Group which is, as I said, the forum for co-operation on defence procurement. As the noble Lord will know very well, the virtue of this organisation is the inclusion of the French within it, and at this moment in time I think that neither they nor we would be glad if it became too institutionalised.

Lord CARRINGTON

But, my Lords, would the noble Lord and the Government not agree with what the noble Lord, Lord Gladwyn, is saying, that none of these organisations will achieve anything unless there is political impetus?

Lord WINTERBOTTOM

My Lords, so far as the European Programme Group is concerned my right honourable friend who is now Secretary of State for Northern Ireland was one of the driving forces behind the creation of the European Programme Group, and this is generally accepted.