§ 2.52 p.m.
§ Baroness EMMET of AMBERLEYMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper. May I say that I am very sorry that a Question on foreign affairs should coincide with the tragic illness of the Secretary of State, and I should like to join with previous speakers in wishing him a rapid recovery.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they are aware of the disastrous effect to our trade and influence due to the lack of ambassadorial representation in the Argentine and Chile, especially in view of the large element of inhabitants of British descent in both countries and the general good will of the population towards Britain.
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, Her Majesty's Government regret that it is not at present possible for them to be represented at ambassadorial level in Santiago and Buenos Aires. Her Majesty's Ambassador in Santiago was withdrawn in protest over the torture of a British subject. Her Majesty's Ambassador in Buenos Aires was withdrawn following a deterioration of relations with the Argentine Government. The lack of ambassadorial representation must inevitably affect our relations with Chile and Argentina, but the Government consider that in all the circumstances our trading relations are satisfactory.
§ Baroness EMMET of AMBERLEYMy Lords, I thank the Minister for that reply. Once there is an improvement, in that there is either abolition of torture or whatever else may be at issue, it is much better to have an Ambassador there to consult with than to have a void, however well our charge d' affaires are doing. Now that these points are in the background I should have thought that this 1397 is the time when the Minister would agree that the situation might be reconsidered. This is an enormous Continent which lacks Ambassadors from Britain.
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, I can assure the noble Baroness that the situation is being kept constantly under review. What she has just said will no doubt form part of our consideration of the situation.
§ Lord MURRAY of GRAVESENDMy Lords, is my noble friend aware that the Government's views, particularly on the question of political views and individual freedom in Chile, will receive widespread support? We hope that the Minister will enlighten us on the further measures that the Government are prepared to take to ensure that more political freedom is allowed in Chile and Argentina.
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, as I have informed the House from time to time, we miss no opportunity of appropriately drawing this problem to the attention of certain Governments whom we think are remiss in applying the basic principles of human rights and freedom. This applies to Chile also. On the point raised by the noble Baroness, that our trade relations may suffer because of the absence of ambassadorial representation, I was glad to be able to say that that aspect of our relations has proved to be satisfactory. I agree, however, that the sooner full representation is arranged by agreement between these two countries the better in order to be able to promote, among other objectives, the expansion of human rights.
§ Viscount MONTGOMERY of ALAMEINMy Lords, in view of the stronger economic position in Chile, can the noble Lord state when ECGD cover for the medium term will be restored?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, I should wish to have notice of the ECGD point. On the question of trading relations, I have here a number of figures. They are too detailed for me to go into in answer to a supplementary question, but if the noble Viscount would consider putting down a Question for Written Answer on both of those points I should be able to answer fairly quickly.
§ Lord HAILSHAM of SAINT MARY-LEBONEMy Lords, if, as the noble Lord says, the Government consider that human rights would better be promoted by representation at ambassadorial level, are the Government in a position to say what conditions they would consider as satisfactory in order to restore ambassadorial representation in both countries?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, I have said that the position in regard to Chile is continuously under review, which indicates that we are anxious, under appropriate conditions, to restore ambassadorial relations. At the moment I could not indicate in detail what those conditions would be, but clearly there would need to be a substantial change in the internal practices of the Chilean Government.
§ Baroness ELLESMy Lords, would the Minister apply the same standards to Cambodia and other parts of the world where human rights are denied both daily and hourly?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, the House is aware that successive Governments apply policy according to the merits of the case of each country, but the position in Cambodia is totally different from that in Chile.
§ The Lord Bishop of SOUTHWARKMy Lords, would Her Majesty's Government agree that there are some of us, certainly on this Bench and probably in many parts of this House, who wonder why it is that there cannot be Ambassadors in the countries named while we have Ambassadors in countries where Christians, Jews and others are continuously persecuted?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, as I have said, each country and its circumstances in relation to this country must be specifically considered. The positions in regard to Chile and, indeed, to Argentina and to the countries which the right reverend Prelate has in mind, are different. In relation to diplomatic recognition, there is no way in which one can apply a general practice to all countries.
§ Lord HAILSHAM of SAINT MARY-LEBONEMy Lords, do the Government 1399 agree that it is important for this country, both as regards its internal public opinion and as regards its status in the world, to adopt intelligible standards and principles'? Does the Minister really think that it is satisfactory, when apparently inconsistent attitudes are taken without disclosure of the principles involved?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, there may be apparently inconsistent practices, but the noble and learned Lord must agree with me that successive Governments have found it very difficult indeed to find a basic principle of application to diplomatic representation. Countries vary, circumstances vary, relationships vary.
§ Baroness GAITSKELLMy Lords, a couple of months ago the Chilean Government released a certain number of political prisoners. Could we not encourage or press the Chilean Government to release some more, with the bait of ambassadorial representation?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, we are constantly making these representations, in regard not only to Chile but to every other country which we feel is falling short of the international requirements relating to human rights. We have made such representations to Chile and we shall continue to do so. While doing so, of course we shall be reviewing the possibilities, as I have said, of restoring ambassadorial relations. This is not always easy, but it must always be an objective of our diplomatic policy.
§ Baroness ELLESMy Lords, would the Minister agree that it must be observed as a principle that it is surely for the benefit of the United Kingdom that this country is always represented by somebody of ambassadorial rank in a large and important country of the world?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, I think that is a generalisation which might not stand up to detailed examination.
§ Lord GEORGE-BROWNMy Lords, while rejecting in a way the description of Ambassadors as "bait", I should like to ask the Minister whether he is aware that to many of us, including those who, like myself, have actually served in 1400 the office, the present double standards that we are applying to countries East of the Iron Curtain and the other countries, such as the two mentioned in this Question, where the only difference is the Party label, are impossible to sustain? May I, therefore, ask him, even in the tragic absence of the present Secretary of State, to consider with the Prime Minister whether we really should not move to the same standard in all, which I think would mean putting Ambassadors back into Argentina and Chile, and not the reverse?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, certainly I take full note of what my noble friend has said. He will know, with his experience, that it is not easy to attain what might be called a consistent basic principle in ambassadorial representation. It is not a question of deliberately applying double standards; it is that relationships and circumstances vary as between one country and another. But I think the fundamental point made by my noble friend is acceptable to us all.
Lord INGLEWOODMy Lords, may I ask the noble Lord whether he will draw the attention of the Chileans and the Argentinians to the example we are setting by letting the Angry Brigade out of prison, and suggest that, taking that as an example, they might do something on a bigger scale in their own country?