§ 2.49 p.m.
§ Lord BOYD-CARPENTERMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether, in the light of recent events, they will defer any action to compel local education authorities to abolish selective grammar schools until after a General Election.
§ Baroness STEDMANNo, my Lords. Her Majesty's Government are committed to bringing about a fully and truly comprehensive system of secondary education in this country as soon as practicable.
§ Lord BOYD-CARPENTERMy Lords, but is the noble Baroness aware, that, to take one example, in the Royal Borough of Kingston-upon-Thames, in respect of which I suppose that I should declare an interest as its High Steward, there are two selective grammar schools of the highest standards of excellence and that, since this issue was raised, the local 383 electors at every election, Parliamentary and local government, have voted emphatically in favour of their retention? Would it not he quite contrary to the democratic way in which we try to do things in this country for a Government, who have lost control of the House of Commons and are plainly in a small minority in the country, to do irreversible damage to schools of this kind without giving the electors an opportunity to pronounce on what they want doing?
§ Baroness STEDMANMy Lords, the Education Act 1976 came into force on 22nd November. On 24th November, the Secretary of State asked the Kingston authority to prepare and to submit within six months a plan for the reorganisation of secondary education in the borough on a non-selective basis. Discussions on that possible scheme are now taking place within the borough, and our information is that it is anticipated that the borough's proposals will be submitted to the full council on 3rd May, before they are submitted to the Secretary of State.
§ Lord BOYD-CARPENTERBut, my Lords, will the noble Baroness give an assurance that no compulsion will be applied to the local authority until there is a new Parliament and a clear view of national opinion on an issue about which many people feel passionately?
§ Baroness STEDMANNo, my Lords. Parliament has taken a decision on comprehensive education. In the 1976 Act the Government have accepted that there are limits and that we are short of resources. Therefore we have not put a completion date on secondary reorganisation along comprehensive lines. However, we still expect authorities to submit their plans and proposals.
§ Lord HAILSHAM of SAINT MARYLEBONEBut, my Lords, are the Government not in the least disturbed by the growing evidence of a diminution of standards in our secondary education, of bullying and violence among pupils in these vast comprehensive schools, and of attacks upon teachers?
§ Baroness STEDMANNo, my Lords, we do not accept that. There is no 384 proven relationship between the decline in the percentage of school leavers with A-levels and the changeover to comprehensive education. Part of the object of the recent national debate on education was to focus attention on standards and to find out what we have to do in order to make them better.
§ Lord BELSTEADMy Lords, is it not the case that within the last 14 days the Secretary of State has criticised the size of comprehensive school sixth forms as being, in her own words, "profoundly unsatisfactory"? Therefore, before the destruction of all the grammar schools, would it not be wise for the Government at least to try to find out whether the existing comprehensive schools are catering for pupils of all abilities?
§ Baroness STEDMANMy Lords, most authorities have taken the view that there has to be rationalisation of their sixth form provision. Even grammar schools, speaking for the part of the country from which I come, have admitted in the recent negotiations that their sixth forms are far too small to be viable. Various forms of comprehensive reorganisation are open to authorities. One of the forms which is gaining credence now is the sixth form college, which some of us have believed in for a very long time. However, it is only one of many ways in which comprehensive education can be organised so that we obtain the best possible results from our sixth forms and give the widest possible option to pupils.
Lord BRUCE of DONINGTONMy Lords, if I may deal with the point raised by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hailsham of Saint Marylebone, is my noble friend aware that the violence and bullying are by no means confined to any particular type of school nor, for that matter, to any particular class?
§ Baroness STEDMANYes, my Lords, my noble friend is right.
§ Lord ELTONMy Lords, can the noble Baroness explain to us how what she has said squares with the fact that the Department is now supporting by grant the National Children's Bureau's pilot scheme of inquiry into whether it is selective or comprehensive schools which provide the best education? Is not the implica- 385 tion which the noble Baroness invites us to draw that the wish is to conclude this operation before the report is made, in case it favours the selective principle?
§ Baroness STEDMANNo, my Lords. The department are financing two projects of research. One is the study to which the noble Lord has referred, which is being conducted by the National Children's Bureau. It is part of the bureau's wider and long-term study of 16,000 children who were born in a single week in 1958. They will investigate the academic development of pupils between the ages of 11 and 16 with reference to the type of school which they attend. The other project deals with the social and academic consequences of the different patterns of secondary school organisation. This project also has been funded by the Department and it is being undertaken by Dr. Judge of the University of Oxford Department of Education. We are sure that both of these projects will produce valuable comparative data on such matters as adjustment to and attitudes towards schools, the career aspirations of the children at the schools, their A-level intentions and their proposed further education studies.
§ Lord HAILSHAM of SAINT MARYLEBONEMy Lords, does not the noble Baroness remember that in Alice in Wonderland there was an official who said: "Execution first, evidence afterwards"?
§ Baroness GAITSKELLMy Lords, may I ask the Minister whether it is true to say that, if the Government do not proceed with their plans for continuing and improving comprehensive education, they will maintain our divisive society which is at the root of our industrial and social problems?
§ Baroness STEDMANMy Lords, as I said, the Government are committed to bringing about a truly comprehensive system of secondary education as soon as is practicable.
§ The Earl of ONSLOWMy Lords, when the noble Baroness replied to the first question asked by my noble and learned friend Lord Hailsham of Saint Marylebone, was she saying that the report published yesterday by the CBI on the disastrous fall in literacy and numeracy 386 rates among apprentices entering industry in South Wales was totally coincidental so far as the introduction of comprehensive schools is concerned?
§ Baroness STEDMANYes, my Lords. There is no proven relationship between any supposed fall in standards and the changeover to comprehensive education. I do not want to weary the House; this is Question Time. However, I have here a set of figures, which I will happily send on to the noble Earl, which shows that in 1975 there was an increase in the academic achievements of the children at the lower end and that far more children were obtaining their CSE and O-levels than had been the case previously.